Yet Another Final Drive Failure

grw · 10-01-2008, 04:26 PM

My 2006 R1200RT suffered a final drive failure at 3500 miles back in September of 2006. The failure mode for me was the rear wheel hub which self destructed allowing the wheel to wobble from side to side. I posted extensively about the problem back at the time. It was so different from the other failures people have experienced that it garnered some attention from the technical folks on the forum.

My wife, my two sons, and I were on our way back from the National in Gillette, WY this July when we stopped overnight at relatives in Coeur d'Alene, ID. My sons were riding my '85 K100 and Deb and I were on the R1200RT. We'd ridden over 3,000 miles since leaving home.

The next morning we headed towards home (Portland) which is a easy 400 mile ride on I-90, US395, and I-84. We pulled over in Spokane Valley to discuss something and as I came up the ramp I felt a wobble that seemed like a tire problem. When I went to ride up the ramp and over to the entrance ramp back onto I-90 the wobble was so bad I thought I had a flat.

Closer inspection showed almost an inch of side play in the rear wheel. We called BMW Roadside Assistance and they towed the bike over to Beaudry Motorsports in Post Falls (a few miles back east on I-90).

The next morning we had a mechanic from Beadry's look at the wheel and he pronounced the bike unridable. After considering our options we decided the simplest solution was to rent a Uhaul truck and bring the bike back to our dealer, BMW of Western OR, in Tigard, OR. The truck cost $300 and burned about $200 in gas on the way home.

The good news first: The BMW Roadside Assistance plan reimbursed us for our $500 in expenses. The check came quickly and with no hassle. Bravo.

The bad news: Yet another hub failure. The shop was able to remove the rear wheel from my bike by hand! The hub failure was complete this time. I guess in retrospect we're lucky that the wheel didn't separate from the bike on I-90. Very lucky indeed.

BMW told the shop that they didn't believe it. Eventually they OK'd the repair and the final drive was ordered. I dropped the bike off in late July and I'm still waiting to get it back. I did have them repair some damage from dropping the bike on a Forest service road in Wyoming. It may be that some of those parts are holding up the repair. Unlike previous times when the bike has been in the shop the communication this time has been pretty sparse. Not sure why. The guys at BMW OR Tigard are generally super about everything.

Between the two final drive failures (the second one was at 14,000 miles) a cylinder head retaining bolt pulled out during a regular service (Insp. II) and BMW had to authorize a warranty Time-sert repair (which necessitated a re-break-in due to new rings on the affected side).

I've just about had it with this R1200RT. Trying to decide what to do next. My inclination is to sell it and move on. It will work and look great when I get it back but can I sell it to another person in good conscience after the problems it's had?

The 23 year old K100 ran flawlessly the whole trip. My kids rode home while my wife and I drove the truck with the 2 year old RT in it.

-Gary

PGlaves · 10-01-2008, 05:00 PM

Please file a report with the NHTSA. A wheel flange so loose as to allow the wheel to fall of is clearly an item that ought to trigger a recall.

Ted · 10-01-2008, 06:48 PM

right here:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm

Paul_F · 10-01-2008, 06:54 PM

In the US, do you not have lemon laws that would allow you to get a new bike from BMW? If, so, surely this situation would qualify.

PGlaves · 10-01-2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul_F

In the US, do you not have lemon laws that would allow you to get a new bike from BMW? If, so, surely this situation would qualify.

US Lemon Law varies from state to state, but usually involve several attempts to fix a problem, and incarceration in a shop for at least a certain number of days within a given time period.

While this sucks, I don't think it fits any Lemon Law I've looked at.

cjack · 10-01-2008, 09:18 PM

Not sure what "Yet another hub failure"means. Were there hub failures? Or does he mean "another final drive failure"? But, I wonder why BMW was reported to not believe it at first. There was a bulletin outlining generally checking wheel flange splines at the final drive. If looseness is found, the flange can be replaced if the male splines are not damaged or out of spec (press fit). It is secured by a large lock ring.

I think someone on one of the forums complained of this setup and after his was fixed...or maybe he didn't have an issue needing a fix...but anyway he ran a big bolt and nut thru the big hole with two big washers, one on each side. So it can't get away. Seemed nuts to me with the lock ring there, but I can see that any severe looseness and miles could push that ring off I guess.

I have most of my worries when I am sitting in the big chair imagining what could go wrong. When I'm riding, and everything feels right, no worries. Probably the best I can do for myself is a preflight check every time I get on the bike and pay attention to how it feels while I am on it. It's a heck of a thing to be responsible for yourself and also the manufacturer, but just like accidents, it doesn't matter who did what wrong...on a bike, the rider gets hurt either way.

marcopolo · 10-02-2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PGlaves

Please file a report with the NHTSA. A wheel flange so loose as to allow the wheel to fall of is clearly an item that ought to trigger a recall.

That's exactly what happened to my '06 RT while in Wyoming in the summer of 2007. It had 38,000 kms on it at the time. After removing the circlip, we could take the rear wheel/flange off by hand; there was absolutely no friction left in the friction fit between the flange and axle tube. The FD, rear rotor and lug nuts were replaced under warranty in Salt Lake. I was only off the road for two days (thankfully a FD was overnighted from California). I, too, was riding two-up at the time this happened. My bike now has 74,000 kms on it, so the second FD has travelled about the same distance as the first did at the time it failed. So far, all is well, but it sure makes you think of the horrible possibilities. Essentially the splines on the flange and the mating set on the axle tube wear each other away. There was a Tech Service Bulletin in early 2005 which covered this issue for FDs on the 1200GS (only hexhead on the market at the time). The TSB said the only fix was to replace the entire FD as in all likelihood, the splines on the axle tube would have suffered wear, and not just those on the flange. BMW seems to have walked back from that, as I know of another fellow who had the same problem, but they (BMW USA) would only authorize replacing the flange, and not the entire FD (big cost difference there). Obviously, after replacing just the flange, the rear wheel has to be in spec regarding rear wheel play (max 1mm if I recall). I'd be annoyed if that's all they'd do for me, as they have an earlier TSB saying the FD had to be replaced. Gee, think cost was a motivation in the change in their thinking?

I just submitted a complaint to NHTSA as suggested above. I was surprised it accepted one from outside the US.

PGlaves · 10-02-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjack

N

I think someone on one of the forums complained of this setup and after his was fixed...or maybe he didn't have an issue needing a fix...but anyway he ran a big bolt and nut thru the big hole with two big washers, one on each side. So it can't get away. Seemed nuts to me with the lock ring there, but I can see that any severe looseness and miles could push that ring off I guess.

OK Jack, help me out here. The wheel flange is turning at tire speed - right? And the opposite end of that big hole is the FD case - hopefully turning at 0 RPM - right?

So is one washer spinning? One washer and the bolt? Everything turning, scuffing on the case?

Unless I'm missing something fairly fundamental, this sounds like something an 8 year old kid would do with his or her wagon.

cjack · 10-02-2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PGlaves

OK Jack, help me out here. The wheel flange is turning at tire speed - right? And the opposite end of that big hole is the FD case - hopefully turning at 0 RPM - right?

So is one washer spinning? One washer and the bolt? Everything turning, scuffing on the case?

Unless I'm missing something fairly fundamental, this sounds like something an 8 year old kid would do with his or her wagon.

I'll try to find the post and picture again, maybe the housing end was more of a plug, and I remember that everything did spin, but your wagon analogy is kind of right about it.

grasslander · 10-03-2008, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grw

I've just about had it with this R1200RT. Trying to decide what to do next. My inclination is to sell it and move on. It will work and look great when I get it back but can I sell it to another person in good conscience after the problems it's had?

-Gary

I couldn't sell without disclosure and especially if asked about any repairs performed. As far as BMW is concerned (and probably any BMW dealer) it's fixed and has warranty, so why worry the new buyer. If you disclose - you will take a bath on value and may not be able to sell it!

My experience anyway...

deilenberger · 10-03-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PGlaves

OK Jack, help me out here. The wheel flange is turning at tire speed - right? And the opposite end of that big hole is the FD case - hopefully turning at 0 RPM - right?

Paul,

In the center of the FD case is the through axle - which turns at both ends. If you used a stopper sort of design on the outer end of the axle I can't see a problem with it. Actually - a stopper design would work on both ends.

Quote:

So is one washer spinning? One washer and the bolt? Everything turning, scuffing on the case?

Nope. Never touches the case. The axle (part with the hole through it) is once piece end to end, and if one end is spinning - so is the other end.

Quote:

Unless I'm missing something fairly fundamental, this sounds like something an 8 year old kid would do with his or her wagon.

I think you missed something..

grw · 10-03-2008, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grasslander

I couldn't sell without disclosure and especially if asked about any repairs performed. As far as BMW is concerned (and probably any BMW dealer) it's fixed and has warranty, so why worry the new buyer. If you disclose - you will take a bath on value and may not be able to sell it!

My experience anyway...

I swung by the shop yesterday and sure enough they've been waiting for one last painted part. As it turns out they can go ahead and do the repairs and when the painted part comes in it's NBD to swap it with the damaged one. Only a little disassembly required. So I should have the bike back soon enough.

As to the lemon laws they are state by state. Since I bought this bike in Montana and not in Oregon I'm SOL in any case as Montana doesn't have a lemon law that I'm aware of. I will report the failure to the NTSB, but I reported the first one and it seems to have fallen into a hole.

Not sure what I'm going to do about the sale. I might have to just suck it up and take my hit. I won't get enough on a trade-in to make that a good solution, so I will just have to see what I can get in a private sale. My general approach is to be honest since that way I can sleep at night. The shame is that I really like the bike.

I may just spring for a factory shield for my base model K100 and maybe a new set of bags after I dispose of the R12. At least the '85 has proven reliable.

We're getting to the end of the riding season here in the PNW so I may have to wait for spring to decide what to do.

Thanks for the responses.

-Gary

Easy · 10-03-2008, 06:02 PM

Montana does have a lemon law.

Go the official Montana website and look under consumer protection, then scroll down to "cars and trucks sales and repairs."

Easy

PGlaves · 10-03-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deilenberger

Paul,

In the center of the FD case is the through axle - which turns at both ends. If you used a stopper sort of design on the outer end of the axle I can't see a problem with it. Actually - a stopper design would work on both ends.Nope. Never touches the case. The axle (part with the hole through it) is once piece end to end, and if one end is spinning - so is the other end.I think you missed something..

I looked at several here at the LOE 1000. It would be possible with a "plug" or washer that only contacts the turning center portion of the drive on the case side.

SteveTech · 10-04-2008, 07:11 PM

I am an auto BMW master tech, I have worked on BMW's since 1977.
What you have to do if you have a FD failure is to make sure the shop sends in a PuMA
case or a quality repair form. This way BMW have to respond to the issue if they get enough reports on one subject.
Also as a club why don't we get do a survey on failures, this would include -:
Miles ridden before failure.
Bike used mainly for 1 or 2 up riding.
Oil viscosity and brand (if known)
We could then send this survey to BMW AG and BMW NA.
As a club I feel we have way more chance of a response from BMW than individuals.
Your thoughts please!
Steve

10-01-2008, 04:26 PM	#1
grw BMWNUT Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 90	Yet Another Final Drive Failure My 2006 R1200RT suffered a final drive failure at 3500 miles back in September of 2006. The failure mode for me was the rear wheel hub which self destructed allowing the wheel to wobble from side to side. I posted extensively about the problem back at the time. It was so different from the other failures people have experienced that it garnered some attention from the technical folks on the forum. My wife, my two sons, and I were on our way back from the National in Gillette, WY this July when we stopped overnight at relatives in Coeur d'Alene, ID. My sons were riding my '85 K100 and Deb and I were on the R1200RT. We'd ridden over 3,000 miles since leaving home. The next morning we headed towards home (Portland) which is a easy 400 mile ride on I-90, US395, and I-84. We pulled over in Spokane Valley to discuss something and as I came up the ramp I felt a wobble that seemed like a tire problem. When I went to ride up the ramp and over to the entrance ramp back onto I-90 the wobble was so bad I thought I had a flat. Closer inspection showed almost an inch of side play in the rear wheel. We called BMW Roadside Assistance and they towed the bike over to Beaudry Motorsports in Post Falls (a few miles back east on I-90). The next morning we had a mechanic from Beadry's look at the wheel and he pronounced the bike unridable. After considering our options we decided the simplest solution was to rent a Uhaul truck and bring the bike back to our dealer, BMW of Western OR, in Tigard, OR. The truck cost $300 and burned about $200 in gas on the way home. The good news first: The BMW Roadside Assistance plan reimbursed us for our $500 in expenses. The check came quickly and with no hassle. Bravo. The bad news: Yet another hub failure. The shop was able to remove the rear wheel from my bike by hand! The hub failure was complete this time. I guess in retrospect we're lucky that the wheel didn't separate from the bike on I-90. Very lucky indeed. BMW told the shop that they didn't believe it. Eventually they OK'd the repair and the final drive was ordered. I dropped the bike off in late July and I'm still waiting to get it back. I did have them repair some damage from dropping the bike on a Forest service road in Wyoming. It may be that some of those parts are holding up the repair. Unlike previous times when the bike has been in the shop the communication this time has been pretty sparse. Not sure why. The guys at BMW OR Tigard are generally super about everything. Between the two final drive failures (the second one was at 14,000 miles) a cylinder head retaining bolt pulled out during a regular service (Insp. II) and BMW had to authorize a warranty Time-sert repair (which necessitated a re-break-in due to new rings on the affected side). I've just about had it with this R1200RT. Trying to decide what to do next. My inclination is to sell it and move on. It will work and look great when I get it back but can I sell it to another person in good conscience after the problems it's had? The 23 year old K100 ran flawlessly the whole trip. My kids rode home while my wife and I drove the truck with the 2 year old RT in it. -Gary __________________ ---------------------- Gary Wasserman MOA#38120 DoD#0216 Airheads#12166 BMWRO '85 K100 / '83 R80RT

10-01-2008, 05:00 PM	#2
PGlaves Benchwrenching Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: "Big Bend" TX Posts: 4,525	Please file a report with the NHTSA. A wheel flange so loose as to allow the wheel to fall of is clearly an item that ought to trigger a recall. __________________ Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

10-01-2008, 06:48 PM	#3
Ted Mr. Thoughtful Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: DC Posts: 1,801	right here: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm __________________ Ted "A good stick is a good reason" 1994 K75RT

10-01-2008, 06:54 PM	#4
Paul_F RK Ryder Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,124	In the US, do you not have lemon laws that would allow you to get a new bike from BMW? If, so, surely this situation would qualify. __________________ Retired and riding my RTs, the '87 K100 & the '98 R1100 !

10-01-2008, 09:18 PM	#6
cjack K Bikes Complex by Choice Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Urbana, IL Posts: 3,416	Not sure what "Yet another hub failure"means. Were there hub failures? Or does he mean "another final drive failure"? But, I wonder why BMW was reported to not believe it at first. There was a bulletin outlining generally checking wheel flange splines at the final drive. If looseness is found, the flange can be replaced if the male splines are not damaged or out of spec (press fit). It is secured by a large lock ring. I think someone on one of the forums complained of this setup and after his was fixed...or maybe he didn't have an issue needing a fix...but anyway he ran a big bolt and nut thru the big hole with two big washers, one on each side. So it can't get away. Seemed nuts to me with the lock ring there, but I can see that any severe looseness and miles could push that ring off I guess. I have most of my worries when I am sitting in the big chair imagining what could go wrong. When I'm riding, and everything feels right, no worries. Probably the best I can do for myself is a preflight check every time I get on the bike and pay attention to how it feels while I am on it. It's a heck of a thing to be responsible for yourself and also the manufacturer, but just like accidents, it doesn't matter who did what wrong...on a bike, the rider gets hurt either way. __________________ My other bike is a BMW. Jack Hawley MOA and RA #224, KE9UW ("Chuck") Last edited by cjack; 01-27-2009 at 06:48 PM.

10-03-2008, 06:02 PM	#13
Easy 77174 Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kerr County, Texas Posts: 777	Montana does have a lemon law. Go the official Montana website and look under consumer protection, then scroll down to "cars and trucks sales and repairs." Easy

10-04-2008, 07:11 PM	#15
SteveTech Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 17	Do we have any statistics on FD failures? I am an auto BMW master tech, I have worked on BMW's since 1977. What you have to do if you have a FD failure is to make sure the shop sends in a PuMA case or a quality repair form. This way BMW have to respond to the issue if they get enough reports on one subject. Also as a club why don't we get do a survey on failures, this would include -: Miles ridden before failure. Bike used mainly for 1 or 2 up riding. Oil viscosity and brand (if known) We could then send this survey to BMW AG and BMW NA. As a club I feel we have way more chance of a response from BMW than individuals. Your thoughts please! Steve