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Thread: Need a battery

  1. #16
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    The comment on the surface area alone would not necessarily change the voltage, although if the surface area is greater it will provide more of a "well" to draw from and that may be where the greater resilience to low charge over a lead cell battery that has a lower surface area of contact. I can't wait to hear from the pro though, at some point my gel will need to be changed.

    Andy

  2. #17
    Registered User RINTY's Avatar
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    battery

    PetDoc: Thanks for the info; that'll go into my binder.

    Quite frankly, when I have to replace the lead acid battery in my '02 1150 RS, I will be tempted to just get another one. With the fuel injection, starting is never an issue, and you've got an alternator which kicks out as much juice as a Volvo unit. And every four years, just replace it with another one, whether it needs it or not. I got stuck with a bad battery 2 summers ago, and it was a memorable experience.
    On the other hand, I think that installing a gel/ABM battery is the single most beneficial improvement you can make to an airhead. Their alternators output fewer electrons than a couple of overworked fireflies, and if your state of tune is less than Parkhousian perfect, you may not be able to get a start at your high Rocky Mountain campsite, even in summer.

    And I hate doing bump starts.

    Thanks for the great thread you guys; this has been one of the best.

    Rin

  3. #18
    Ozonkiller
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    Hey guys,

    I finally got an answer from my way smart big brother. Here is the e mail that he sent me

    Tom,

    Both AGM and Gel batteries are better than flooded lead acid in terms of resistance to abuse in the form of storage without charge, and resistance to sulphation. Flooded lead acid works great as long as it's used frequently and never allowed to over-discharge or sit for long terms without charge. Gel would be competitive with AGM but for the fact that Gel is more sensitive to over-charge. The charge voltage for Gel is lower than AGM or flooded lead acid. Since nearly all vehicle charger systems are designed for flooded lead acid, they tend to over-charge Gel batteries resulting in reduced life. The thin separator created by the glass mat in AGM batteries results in a very low impedance battery (this means high peak starting current). I have seen automotive AGM batteries with specified internal impedance on the order of 3 milli-Ohms (.003 Ohms). This means low internal loss during both charge, thus higher terminal voltage on discharge at high currents, and also less internal heat buildup. Motorcycle batteries won't be this low, but are still better with AGM than with flooded lead acid or gel.

    One way of gauging the technology is to look at manufacturer's warranties. This gives an idea of the confidence level of the manufacturer. I bought an AGM battery for my car with an 8-year warranty. You won't find an 8-year battery in any other technology as far as I know. To me, this means the manufacturer knows this is a good battery.

    Look at these sites for more info:
    http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html#3

    http://www.dcbattery.com/agmtech.html (Read this one for sure)
    (Also read this one for sure ... very strong argument against gel)
    http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Bat...%20electrolyte

    Finally, this site:
    http://www.batterystuff.com/motorcyc...ery-value.html
    Batterystuff.com sells several brands of AGM battery that they consider "premium". They do, however, distinguish the Odyssey and SVR as being "super premium", i.e. better than the rest. If you want the best, try to find an Odyssey or SVR brand AGM for your bike.

    I haven't been able to find a cross reference to the Odyssey or SVR for my ST1100, so will probably buy a WestCo.

    Good luck,

    Jim

    I think this should help edumacatum us a little bit. I was leaning towards the Odyssey but now I'll have to check out the SVR. Can't say that I've ever heard of it.

    Good luck,

    Tom

  4. #19
    Registered User RINTY's Avatar
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    batteries

    The sensitivity to over-charging is presumably one of the factors in the early failures of the gel batteries, as posted elsewhere.

    The scenario that occurred to me is where the purchaser of a new gel battery equipped BMW brings it home and, thinking that it has been sitting around for half a year, hooks a high output car/truck battery charger up to it to just "top it up." All before reading the owner's manual, which presumably has a warning in it.

    Rinty

  5. #20
    Life Member SCJACK's Avatar
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    I've read several articles that state that Gel batteries are also more prone to fail from exposure to heat than the AGM types. I would suspect that heat rising from the engine to the bottom of the battery may be contributing to the failure of some of the Gel batteries.

  6. #21
    Ozonkiller
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    Living here in Phoenix, enduring the heat is a HUGE issue and I still don't know how the charging system on my bike, which came with a standard lead acid battery is gonna know the difference. If the charging system is a little bit on the aggressive side, what's to keep it from cooking the gel cell. I just ordered an Oddysey. The feedback on them seems to be consistently good and all of the data seems to add up.

  7. #22
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    Thanks ozonkiller and thank your bro please. This was good information to learn, and dispell the conjecture a little. It really does not look very good for GEL.

    Thanks again,
    Andy

  8. #23
    Braz J Brase's Avatar
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    I too just ordered an Odyssey. My original wet cell battery is dead after only ten months of service. However, the bike was built in 10/02 and sat around waiting for someone to buy it till I did in 02/05. Presumably it discharged itself many times while sitting around. Not a good thing. If that weren't enough I also found it to be way low on water even though the service geniouses had done the 600 and 6000 mile service in the meantime. If my not-very-local dealer was any good I'd make a warranty claim but I just don't feel like starting a fight right now.

    John

  9. #24
    mff
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    Batt for '95 R1100GS- Electrical problem

    The original battery failed after two years, for the next 5 years I had two Panasonic batteries but the ABS did not set half of the time- then we installed the Odyssey - ABS set every time but after 3 years it is now losing its charge. Removed the battery from the bike & it charges right up & holds 12v, but put it in the bike & it is dead in 5 days. No blown fuses? Can't find any shorts? Any ideas?
    MFF

  10. #25
    K Bikes Complex by Choice cjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mff
    The original battery failed after two years, for the next 5 years I had two Panasonic batteries but the ABS did not set half of the time- then we installed the Odyssey - ABS set every time but after 3 years it is now losing its charge. Removed the battery from the bike & it charges right up & holds 12v, but put it in the bike & it is dead in 5 days. No blown fuses? Can't find any shorts? Any ideas?
    MFF
    Put the battery in the bike and hook up a multimeter on it's current range of about 1 amp or less and start pulling fuses. When the current drawn when the ign key is off goes away, that is the circuit with the leakage or current draw. Then try to isolate which of the loads on that circuit is drawing the current by unplugging or disconnecting each load in turn.
    BMWMotorcycles, fun when they're running...
    My other bike is a BMW.
    Jack Hawley MOA and RA #224, KE9UW ("Chuck")

  11. #26
    Rally Rat
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    SCJack you may be right. My Gel has just gelled. I kept it connected to Deltran Gel battery charger whenever I wasn't riding and after a little more than 3 years it is toast. I've ordered a Panasonic AGM (LX-1220P) which is the 20 amp model. Now we'll see if under similar conditions it outlasts the OEM gel.

  12. #27
    CustomSarge
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    Thumbs up Agm (it won't allow all upper case!)

    IIRC, since the electrolyte has real viscosity, you lose electron mobility. That would explain both the charge sensitivity of a gel and that it has lower max load amperage. Also why it is better suited to deep, low to medium load cycling. Every UPS I've worked with runs gel type, except one 3kW that used VRLAs (std maint. free lead acid).

    I got the Gates AGM (Odyssey?) back in 6/00 after seeing the ad in a trade rag. My Gates distributor hadn't heard of them yet. I built a regulated charger for off season (13.5V @ 50mA) and each spring I just hit the key & go.

    I've been building electronics over 30 years, and think AGM is the 1st real advance in liquid cell tech. I don't understand why flooded types are still made. VRLA is a good alternative to flooded, but I like AGM even better. <<<)))

  13. #28
    Mudbug
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    Quote Originally Posted by scjack
    I haven't tried the Panasonic but I have read that it is also reliable, but I've only read of people using it on this site (and no others) which has a limited number of users compared to a couple of others.
    I replaced a BMW battery in my K100RS with a Panasonic. That was two years ago and it is holding up well. One warning though, don't use synthetic oil with it.

  14. #29
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    I just bought the Panasonic on line for $43.00 shipped. Installed it in my K1100LT and my ABS fault disappeared!

    These can sit on the shelf for a long time with very low discharge.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  15. #30
    charleshickman
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    Panasonic AGM

    I've been going two years on a Panasoninc AGM from www.digikey.com. They had the best prices I could find when I went looking. Great service and they still send me their monster catalog.

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