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  1. #16
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    Which is exactly why customers should not be allowed in the shop!
    Unless it is an emergency I refuse to patronize a dealership that won't let me in the shop, talk to the real tech, etc.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #17
    Small road corner junkie pffog's Avatar
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    The "backwards" tread patterns started 5 years ago or so. MC tire tread has a minor part with evacuating water, the contact patch and profile of the tire, inherently "part" standing water, plus a MC has about twice the contact pressure of a car tire, so it is less likely to be able to surf on it.

    Here is my tongue-in-cheek explanation. Some engineer at brand X drew it backwards in his CAD program, and no one caught it until it was too late. The other manufactures then saw that the tire was getting a lot of free press, with moto journalists that were perplexed, and at the local hang out everybody was laughing at the dolt that put it on backwards, until he bet them not. Upon showing his buddies it was correctly installed, a there was a crowd looking at this brand X tire (more free Advertising). So like any good marketing department they wanted to cash into to all the buzz, so they followed suit. Maybe a stretch, but as plausible as any other theory.
    2010 F800GS Full Ohlins package, '04 R1100S Replika
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  3. #18
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Unless it is an emergency I refuse to patronize a dealership that won't let me in the shop, talk to the real tech, etc.
    You are entitled to your opinion but I find they are distraction and prefer to concentrate on the job at hand.
    Talking to the tech beforehand is much different than having the customer talk to you while you are working.
    There are many reasons why this policy prevails.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  4. #19
    Lucky motorradmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tt100 View Post
    I had my buddy that has the tire take a picture with the arrow and tread in the shot and then compared it to a photo I had of the bike with the tire mounted. If you look at the closeup in post #5 you'll see the direction of the tread
    Oops, I missed that.
    Clever.
    Mike Marr
    1978 Yamaha XS750 (Needs rings), 1996 BMW R1100RS, 2004 Honda CRF230F

  5. #20
    Lucky motorradmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud View Post
    He wasn't a customer. He was a guy getting the free mounting by a friend of his.
    Yes, that's different for sure.
    I would've got him to flop on the first bead, torque the wheelbolts etc.

    Friends working together is fun but liability has to clearly stay with the bike owner.
    Mike Marr
    1978 Yamaha XS750 (Needs rings), 1996 BMW R1100RS, 2004 Honda CRF230F

  6. #21
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    You are entitled to your opinion but I find they are distraction and prefer to concentrate on the job at hand.
    Talking to the tech beforehand is much different than having the customer talk to you while you are working.
    There are many reasons why this policy prevails.
    I should have been clearer. I don't want to bother the tech while he/she is actually performing repair/maintenance tasks. But I much prefer to talk directly to the tech who is actually going to do the work about problems and symptoms than to talk to the service writer who may or may not know the box end from the open end of the wrench. And I certainly do want to actually view the shop area, its cleanliness, orderliness, etc.

    I know there are reasons. But I don't need to spend my money at places I don't trust (that emergency excepted) and I don't trust shops that keep the techs hidden and inaccessible to the customer - me!
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  7. #22
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    I should have been clearer. I don't want to bother the tech while he/she is actually performing repair/maintenance tasks. But I much prefer to talk directly to the tech who is actually going to do the work about problems and symptoms than to talk to the service writer who may or may not know the box end from the open end of the wrench. And I certainly do want to actually view the shop area, its cleanliness, orderliness, etc.

    I know there are reasons. But I don't need to spend my money at places I don't trust (that emergency excepted) and I don't trust shops that keep the techs hidden and inaccessible to the customer - me!
    I acknowledge your point and agree.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  8. #23
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorradmike View Post
    Yes, that's different for sure.
    I would've got him to flop on the first bead, torque the wheelbolts etc.

    Friends working together is fun but liability has to clearly stay with the bike owner.
    Folks looking over my shoulder has often caused me to forget the sequence I typically follow on most tasks. I can talk to myself all day long and wrench...chatting about world events or general BS can be a major distraction when knee deep. Helen has a knack for coming in at critical mass moments and asking "whatch'a doin?"

    I have had a few fellas TRY to mount the tires...then hand me the mounting bar and walk away Always fun!
    Steve Henson
    SABMWRA MOA Club#62's Flat Fixer/ current forum moderator
    It's not the breaths you take, but the moments that take your breath away-D.Dillon/G. Strait

  9. #24
    Survivor akbeemer's Avatar
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    When I change tires for friends, and I seem to have more of them now that I have a tire changer, I tell them I will change their tires for no charge. But... if they watch it will cost $50 a wheel, and if they help it will cost $100 a wheel.
    Kevin Huddy
    Intrepid Incompetent
    Tm Pterodactyl MT Outpost

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20774 View Post
    Not to mention that the lay up of the tire materials won't be right if run backwards relative to the forces it typically sees...the braking forces.
    Please tell me your source for this information.

    Have you ever been in a tire plant, do you design tires?

    Unless something has changed, there is no tread pattern on a tire before it is cured, and the is no attempt to keep a certain orientation. The plies are symmetrical. The tire only get a pattern when they are molded. So they do not care which way they rotate, the pattern evacuates water better in one rotation, as narrow as a MC tire is, you would need to be rolling pretty fast to notice.

    Rod

  11. #26
    Small road corner junkie pffog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
    Please tell me your source for this information.

    Have you ever been in a tire plant, do you design tires?

    Unless something has changed, there is no tread pattern on a tire before it is cured, and the is no attempt to keep a certain orientation. The plies are symmetrical. The tire only get a pattern when they are molded. So they do not care which way they rotate, the pattern evacuates water better in one rotation, as narrow as a MC tire is, you would need to be rolling pretty fast to notice.

    Rod

    It was related to the wrap of the belts, and their overlap, not the tread material. Back when radial tires started to become popular, in the 70's, there was not so many directional tires, but the tire companies recommended against changing direction of the tires. Tire rotation previously was a crisscross pattern that changed the rotation, later recommendations went to just a front to rear rotation, on the same side. Tire tread separation use to be a common problem, where you got a "bubble" in the tread surface, and maybe this lead to some research. In my experience most tires today, car or MC have directional arrows.
    2010 F800GS Full Ohlins package, '04 R1100S Replika
    '01 F650GS Wife's bike
    Maritime Alps and Vosges 2012
    Tuscany and Central Italy 2010

  12. #27
    Registered User rxcrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pffog View Post
    The "backwards" tread patterns started 5 years ago or so. MC tire tread has a minor part with evacuating water, the contact patch and profile of the tire, inherently "part" standing water, plus a MC has about twice the contact pressure of a car tire, so it is less likely to be able to surf on it.

    Here is my tongue-in-cheek explanation. Some engineer at brand X drew it backwards in his CAD program, and no one caught it until it was too late. The other manufactures then saw that the tire was getting a lot of free press, with moto journalists that were perplexed, and at the local hang out everybody was laughing at the dolt that put it on backwards, until he bet them not. Upon showing his buddies it was correctly installed, a there was a crowd looking at this brand X tire (more free Advertising). So like any good marketing department they wanted to cash into to all the buzz, so they followed suit. Maybe a stretch, but as plausible as any other theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
    Please tell me your source for this information.

    Have you ever been in a tire plant, do you design tires?

    Unless something has changed, there is no tread pattern on a tire before it is cured, and the is no attempt to keep a certain orientation. The plies are symmetrical. The tire only get a pattern when they are molded. So they do not care which way they rotate, the pattern evacuates water better in one rotation, as narrow as a MC tire is, you would need to be rolling pretty fast to notice.

    Rod
    The tread on front road motorcycle tires with a pattern that leads with the open end of a V are for a few good reasons. One is that the pattern works well for cornering in wet conditions. The other two that I know of are related. It gives a more stable tread block under braking, similar to what the traditional V pattern does on the rear under acceleration. Because of this, it also gives more even wear, with less cupping. Straight line water dispersion isn't a major concern with such a narrow contact patch, as long as there are channels to allow the water to evacuate. Features like the PR3 / PR4 siping help with waster dispersion as well. At highway speeds, if the water gets deep enough, no tread pattern will save you. Don't assume that being on a motorcycle means you can't hydroplane.

    I don't know if it is strictly the overlap direction of carcass components or if some layer of the tire is actually directional, but I know that even tires like the Michelin S-12xc rear, which is an offroad tire with a non-directional tread pattern, come with directional arrows on the sidewall. The information from Michelin was that the carcass was directional, even though the tread wasn't. I've never seen an issue from running the S-12 backwards (I'd flip it once the lugs were rounded to get more life out of it before I bought a knobby knife) but on front street tires, I've seen some ugly wear patterns from them being installed backwards.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pffog View Post
    It was related to the wrap of the belts, and their overlap, not the tread material. Back when radial tires started to become popular, in the 70's, there was not so many directional tires, but the tire companies recommended against changing direction of the tires. Tire rotation previously was a crisscross pattern that changed the rotation, later recommendations went to just a front to rear rotation, on the same side. Tire tread separation use to be a common problem, where you got a "bubble" in the tread surface, and maybe this lead to some research. In my experience most tires today, car or MC have directional arrows.
    I have worked in a tire plant, it was years ago though.

    Early radial tire carcass would take a set where the belts were slightly twisted with use. Before they were run in there was no directional set to the tire carcass.

    Reversing this set would occasionally break the bond of the cords loose from the rubber. This was due to the primitive compounds and glues used at the time.

    Now the compounds, glues, and cord treatments are pretty robust. Michelin was one of the first to solve this issue. There was a LOT of reverse engineering occurring.

    So, since this tire has never been run, you are perfectly safe from a carcass point of view to run it reverse. If you reverse it early in life, you are also safe, as there will be little if any direction set. Beside, Michelin has great technology if the set had occurred I would not expect to to ever delaminate.. The only possible detriments would be water evacuation, as narrow as a MC tire is and with the low USA speed limits, I would just run it.

    I currently have my front mounted backwards from a brain fart and I am leaving it that way.

    Rod

  14. #29
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    Kudos to Auto Tech Unlimited, Dayton OH

    I wanted to take a second and give kudos to Auto Tech Unlimited. They swapped the tire around on the spot for me Monday without charging me. I told them up front it was my fault and explained what happened. They said no worries and changed it for free. So if you are in the SW Ohio area and don't have your own changer yet give these guys a shout

    Additionally, I really like these Pilot Road 3s. It transformed the ride and handling. My old Bridgestones had over 6.5k and had terrible a wear pattern with alternating raised and worn lowered corners of tread block down the centerline of the tire. Probably any tire would make a huge difference actually, but anyway, my bike rides a ton better!

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