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Thread: tranny input shaft

  1. #31
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrpetersen View Post
    Have you ever measured axial run out (i. e. an angle between the two axes)? That would seem to be very easy to minimize from a manufacturing methods standpoint. Radial run out on the other hand, isn't. Of course an accident could bend the clutch housing etc.....
    The big issue I have seen with these clutch assemblies is that the pins on the clutch cover go through the tangs on the pressure plate and into holes in the clutch housing (flywheel). The pins can stick in the holes, and, unlike the classic K series with a fairly thick cast aluminum housing, the thin stamped steel housings on the R11xx bikes can bend easily if there is the slightest bit of ham handedness in either disassembly or reassembly. That is where I think most of the cases of wobble are coming from. And yes - I have used a dial indicator to measure axial runout.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsample View Post
    I thought I might get flamed with my rant that started this whole thing... thanks for sparing me.

    I wound up taking my gearbox to Perry in Ft. Worth about 10 days ago, still no word on where he is in the rebuild. In the meantime I did come across an 02 RTP that the PO had just put a new clutch in, but wound up with some kind of wiring problem exacerbated by some serious health issues that prevented him from returning it to service. I pulled the gearbox and found the splines to have considerably less wear (RTP had 47K on it) than mine did at 57K, and had Perry not already been into mine I might have used it. So for now I have a parts bike that the PO said ran great for the 40 miles or so he rode it before starting the clutch replacement. So this may need to be another thread, but given that there are many parts that will interchange I was wondering what would be on the top of the list to scavenge and keep?

    The alternator is a 60 amp unit and appears that it is candidate to use (at an alternator shop making sure the wiring harness issue didn't toast it), and I like the idea of having a fan on the oil cooler- so I'll probably retrofit that with a toggle switch. I'd almost rather have the unlinked ABS from the RTP - but can only imagine it would be next to impossible to make that work right, so unless somebody tells me its an easy swap I'll probably pass on that one.

    Brake calipers, rotors, final drive and shafts.. I'll probably keep for spares. Did I miss anything?
    Keep the wheels, you never know when you might bend a rim. Glad you did work out a deal with the guy, when I saw that bike in his garage I knew he would never get back together. Keep us posted on a Perry.

  3. #33
    Bill Lumberg 175781's Avatar
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    I was set to have a clutch/spline lube service done early this year. Then the top end had to be rebuilt. That put it off a bit. Approaching 60K, I think it's only a matter of time.
    Last edited by 175781; 02-25-2014 at 11:10 AM.
    R75/6, 2004 R1150RTA.

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    misalignment?

    Based on the photo attached, can anyone tell me if this appears to be a classic case of misalignment?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    04 R1150RT

  5. #35
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhuf View Post
    Based on the photo attached, can anyone tell me if this appears to be a classic case of misalignment?
    I think there are two equal possibilities both of which Paul outlined below. For the reasons he gave, I think the out of true clutch housing is the more likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    If the shaft is not a perfect 90 degrees to the plane of the disk hub (or put another way - exactly parallel and coincident with that hub) then the angular alignment can/will cause barrel shaped wear.

    I know of two causes:

    1. Bolting the transmission and engine case together in a manner that has the transmission shaft and crankshaft not in perfect alignment.

    2. A bent/deformed clutch housing which holds the disk in a position which "wobbles" on its axis.

    I have replaced a couple of clutch housings (flywheels with the starter ring gear) because by eye they were noticably bent. These pieces on Oilhead bikes are flat steel and are easily bent during either assembly or disassembly.

    When you take pone of these apart and find barrel shaped wear on the shaft, I would recommend that the first thing you do is check the axial runout (front-to-back) on the flywheel (clutch housing).
    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    The big issue I have seen with these clutch assemblies is that the pins on the clutch cover go through the tangs on the pressure plate and into holes in the clutch housing (flywheel). The pins can stick in the holes, and, unlike the classic K series with a fairly thick cast aluminum housing, the thin stamped steel housings on the R11xx bikes can bend easily if there is the slightest bit of ham handedness in either disassembly or reassembly. That is where I think most of the cases of wobble are coming from. And yes - I have used a dial indicator to measure axial runout.

  6. #36
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    runout

    If I understand axle runout correctly, doesn't the photo indicate a significant amount of runout? And if so would this lead me to believe that the flywheel should be noticeably warped upon visual inspection?
    04 R1150RT

  7. #37
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhuf View Post
    If I understand axle runout correctly, doesn't the photo indicate a significant amount of runout? And if so would this lead me to believe that the flywheel should be noticeably warped upon visual inspection?
    You might notice it looking at it from the side with the flywheel turning. But you need the transmission out to see it from this viewpoint and few folks do a lot of turning of the flywheel when the bike is this far apart. You won't notice it just sitting there. That is where a dial indicator comes in to measure the runout.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  8. #38
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhuf View Post
    If I understand axle runout correctly, doesn't the photo indicate a significant amount of runout? And if so would this lead me to believe that the flywheel should be noticeably warped upon visual inspection?
    Just to clarify terms for people who may be reading:

    Take a pencil and stick it through a paper plate - exactly in the center but through at an angle. Twirl the plate and pencil and see it wobble as you turn it. That is axial runout.

    as opposed to

    Take a pencil and stick it exactly straight through a paper plate but at a point slightly off center. Twirl the pencil and see the edges of the plate appear to move toward and away from the pencil. That is radial runout.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  9. #39
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    This is kind of a whacky question, but in addition to ham-handedness, could engaging the starter while the engine is running deform the flywheel?

  10. #40
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhuf View Post
    Based on the photo attached, can anyone tell me if this appears to be a classic case of misalignment?
    I must assume the hub spline is totally wiped out and that the bike was ridden until the spline system failed.

    To my way of thinking, this is caused by radial misalignment between the the axis of the engine and the transmission. This causes fretting of the spline teeth. Think of a spline as a 1:1 internal/external gear set to transmit torque between two elements - but hopefully with no relative motion during operation. But in this case, because of the radial misalignment, there is relative motion and a lot of spline tooth face force and fretting as the transmission shaft drags the clutch disk around the face of the flywheel - once every engine revolution.

    Which spline element gets worn, depends on which one is harder. I suspect the transmission shaft is extra-hard at the tip, since it is probably induction hardened. The clutch hub is softer but probably uniformly hard over its length so they can broach this part during manufacture.

    Assuming there is a radial misalignment, initially the fretting-induced wear between these two parts will be such that they are conjugal. Conjugal simply means that wherever there is contact, there will be wear from one or the other, but not necessarily distributed equally between the two parts along its length. Why not equal? Because there is varying relative hardness of the two parts along their mutual length.

    That all works for a while, but at some point the clutch hub will have little hub tooth material left at the engine end, where the shaft is hardest. The hub teeth begin to strip out, engine end first. Then the wear gets serious as finally only a small portion of the hub nearest the transmission is transmitting the radial loading since the hub teeth are completely worn away at the engine end. At the very end, only a small amount (maybe less than 1/8 inch) of hub teeth are carrying the torque, and the whole thing fails. The greatest shaft wear is at the transmission end, since the shaft teeth outlasted the softer hub teeth.

    The result is what people have been diagnosing as angular misalignment, but I'll bet that any apparent barrel shaped shafts only are near or after total failure of the clutch hub.

    Does this scenario match up with the everyone's observations?
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  11. #41
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Just to clarify terms for people who may be reading:

    Take a pencil and stick it through a paper plate - exactly in the center but through at an angle. Twirl the plate and pencil and see it wobble as you turn it. That is axial runout.

    as opposed to

    Take a pencil and stick it exactly straight through a paper plate but at a point slightly off center. Twirl the pencil and see the edges of the plate appear to move toward and away from the pencil. That is radial runout.
    Good example. That's why Paul writes the column instead of me (or others.....)
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  12. #42
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    Thank you for the explanation and analogy Paul. Now I understand.

    And to verify nrpeterson's assumption the clutch spline was totally wiped out to total failure, and without any prior symptoms at all.
    04 R1150RT

  13. #43
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Just to clarify terms for people who may be reading:

    Take a pencil and stick it through a paper plate - exactly in the center but through at an angle. Twirl the plate and pencil and see it wobble as you turn it. That is axial runout.

    as opposed to

    Take a pencil and stick it exactly straight through a paper plate but at a point slightly off center. Twirl the pencil and see the edges of the plate appear to move toward and away from the pencil. That is radial runout.

    Thanks a lot Paul, this is a great explanation. Needless to say, I decided to pick up dial gauge and stand to have a closer look at the clutch housing. I guess I am wrong, but I tend to assume because a part is made of steel, it will be strong and hard to warp.

  14. #44
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    This is kind of a whacky question, but in addition to ham-handedness, could engaging the starter while the engine is running deform the flywheel?
    I don't see that as likely. It might mess up the ring gear teeth but probably not bend the flywheel. Once it (clutch housing, pressure plate, clutch disk, and clutch cover) are all bolted together it is a fairly stiff assembly. It is the flywheel alone that is stiff radially from the center out and in but not particularly stiff if one were to try to take an edge and bend ir forward or backward.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
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  15. #45
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrpetersen View Post
    I must assume the hub spline is totally wiped out and that the bike was ridden until the spline system failed.

    To my way of thinking, this is caused by radial misalignment between the the axis of the engine and the transmission.




    The result is what people have been diagnosing as angular misalignment, but I'll bet that any apparent barrel shaped shafts only are near or after total failure of the clutch hub.

    Does this scenario match up with the everyone's observations?
    I have seen the wear pattern shown in the photo (above) when the disk hub has not completely stripped. Well worn but not yet stripped.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

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