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Thread: tranny input shaft

  1. #16
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Back to splines, short shafts, small hubs, and failure!! Yes the design sucks! But they don't all fail, and certainly not all at an early age. My R1150R is at 170,000 miles on the originals as out of the factory. True, when last looked at and cleaned and lubed at 160,000 miles or so they were not as pristine as I wanted to see but still worth putting the bike back together without new parts.
    Paul, I know from your posts that you've kept your splines clean (no grit in the mix) and lubricated (less wear and corrosion). I'm also going to guess that you know how to treat machinery and that your bike never had its clutch abused in any way. Perhaps a combination of those factors along with good clutch housing flatness and shaft alignment kept your bike from being affected. RB

  2. #17
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Back to splines, short shafts, small hubs, and failure!! Yes the design sucks! But they don't all fail, and certainly not all at an early age. My R1150R is at 170,000 miles on the originals as out of the factory. True, when last looked at and cleaned and lubed at 160,000 miles or so they were not as pristine as I wanted to see but still worth putting the bike back together without new parts.
    The input shaft is probably hardest at the tip. Properly aligned, this spline set is completely adequate.

    If there is a radial manufacturing or assembly error, it requires frequent attention and relubrication (if any was applied at the factory. If the radial alignment error is substantial, the spline OD teeth will wear the hub teeth at the engine end until they eventually begin to strip out, shifting the contacts to the transmission end. Then the remaining spline at the transmission end in the hub finally strips out giving the characteristic major wear at the transmission end of the shaft. The advanced wear pattern is what causes the clutch to hang up on the shaft making shifting awkward. If you have gotten to the point of messy shifts, the hub is about ready to let go.

    Note how little spline it takes for the last bit of wear, indicating the ability of this spline to handle the torque. I suspect that a substantially worn shaft could be re used again with only a minor reduction in life especially if the alignment is corrected (assuming the crankshaft main bearings are still OK).

    But it is the radial alignment error starts the whole process. Not the shaft engagement.
    Last edited by nrpetersen; 02-10-2014 at 12:58 AM.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  3. #18
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Back to splines, short shafts, small hubs, and failure!! Yes the design sucks! But they don't all fail, and certainly not all at an early age. My R1150R is at 170,000 miles on the originals as out of the factory. True, when last looked at and cleaned and lubed at 160,000 miles or so they were not as pristine as I wanted to see but still worth putting the bike back together without new parts.
    Paul, your bike has considerable mileage. Quite likely more then most of us will ever obtain. I am very curious if your seeing even wear along the length of the spline? Or like many of us, more wear at the transmission end of the spline.

  4. #19
    Registered User GKman's Avatar
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    Just searched ebay for motorcycle - BMW transmission and got over 600 hits.
    If what you need isn't on there or at Beemerboneyard this week it will be.
    Insurance companies total bikes for anything more than scratched mirrors so plenty of good used parts available.

  5. #20
    Still a learning newbie !
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    96 R1100 RT 5 speed box

    Is there drawings or a fixture to check alignment? Are alignment dowels available thru a source or should I get a local machine shop to make a set depending on what I find. Also best place to pick up a good quality alignment tool for the clutch assy?

    I think my baby's 1st spline lube is due, as soon as I clear garage and bench space she will be coming apart for inspection and a good bit of maintenance.

    Thanks all
    Dadrider.

  6. #21
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacque Jacque Shellacque View Post
    Paul, your bike has considerable mileage. Quite likely more then most of us will ever obtain. I am very curious if your seeing even wear along the length of the spline? Or like many of us, more wear at the transmission end of the spline.
    Like all 1150s, mine shows the short non-contact area nearest the transmission. But the contact area appears to have worn in a linear faqshion, aligned with the axis of the shaft. I don't have the barrel shape which we saw with the K75s with faulty auxiliary cases.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  7. #22
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    spline update

    I thought I might get flamed with my rant that started this whole thing... thanks for sparing me.

    I wound up taking my gearbox to Perry in Ft. Worth about 10 days ago, still no word on where he is in the rebuild. In the meantime I did come across an 02 RTP that the PO had just put a new clutch in, but wound up with some kind of wiring problem exacerbated by some serious health issues that prevented him from returning it to service. I pulled the gearbox and found the splines to have considerably less wear (RTP had 47K on it) than mine did at 57K, and had Perry not already been into mine I might have used it. So for now I have a parts bike that the PO said ran great for the 40 miles or so he rode it before starting the clutch replacement. So this may need to be another thread, but given that there are many parts that will interchange I was wondering what would be on the top of the list to scavenge and keep?

    The alternator is a 60 amp unit and appears that it is candidate to use (at an alternator shop making sure the wiring harness issue didn't toast it), and I like the idea of having a fan on the oil cooler- so I'll probably retrofit that with a toggle switch. I'd almost rather have the unlinked ABS from the RTP - but can only imagine it would be next to impossible to make that work right, so unless somebody tells me its an easy swap I'll probably pass on that one.

    Brake calipers, rotors, final drive and shafts.. I'll probably keep for spares. Did I miss anything?
    Last edited by bsample; 02-18-2014 at 03:39 PM.

  8. #23
    Registered User awagnon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awagnon View Post
    I'm currently watching the splines on my "04 1150GS. There was significant wear two years ago and I'll be taking another look in a couple of weeks
    Just a short followup on my previous post. I checked the splines on my '04 1150GS exactly two years and 20,000 miles ago when the bike had about 20,000 miles on the odometer. The input shaft showed about 10% wear and the splines inside the clutch disk were 20-25% gone. I didn't have the tools or skill to check for a misalignment, so I just replaced all clutch parts south of the crank shaft in case there was a run-out issue and re-lubed with moly grease from Guard Dog as recommended by Paul Glaves. I took the bike apart today and the splines in the clutch disk look brand new and the wear on the input shaft has not gotten any worse in the last 2 years and 20,000 miles. So, either replacing all of the clutch or using the Guard Dog grease prevented what should have been significant wear. I'll look again next winter if I still have the bike, but based on my limited experience, I would recommend this if you have sub-critical spline wear.
    Al - Ogden, Utah
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  9. #24
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awagnon View Post
    ......... I didn't have the tools or skill to check for a misalignment, so I just replaced all clutch parts south of the crank shaft in case there was a run-out issue and re-lubed with moly grease from Guard Dog as recommended by Paul Glaves. I took the bike apart today and the splines in the clutch disk look brand new and the wear on the input shaft has not gotten any worse in the last 2 years and 20,000 miles. So, either replacing all of the clutch or using the Guard Dog grease prevented what should have been significant wear. I'll look again next winter if I still have the bike, but based on my limited experience, I would recommend this if you have sub-critical spline wear.
    Has BMW been religious about greasing these on initial assembly? With what, and how much, too! When I looked at my R11000RT at 24K miles, it seemed like only maybe a thin coat of varnish had been put on the splines.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  10. #25
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrpetersen View Post
    Has BMW been religious about greasing these on initial assembly? With what, and how much, too! When I looked at my R11000RT at 24K miles, it seemed like only maybe a thin coat of varnish had been put on the splines.
    Going as far back as the classic K bikes in 1985 - no, BMW has not been particularly consistent in the application of spline lubricant. On both K bikes and Oilheads I have seen dry splines at as few as 6,000 miles. As for what do they use, again going back a ways they have specified: anti-seize, Stabarugs assembly paste, Otpimoly paste, BMW #10 red grease (like Texaco Starplex), and whatever they are using now. I lost track a few years ago.

    I believe that the "varnish" you found was the remains of BMW#10 red grease after all the liquid drained off in the first instance of 100 F plus tempertures. That stuff would drip and drain out of the grease gun on the shelf in the shop at 90 degrees F. If ever in the history of mankind did anybody specify something as unsuitable for splines as #10 red grease a bolt of lightening probably struck him or her immediately. BMW gets a lot of things right but spline lubrication has not proven to be one of those things.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  11. #26
    Registered User PAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post

    I believe that the "varnish" you found was the remains of BMW#10 red grease after all the liquid drained off in the first instance of 100 F plus temperature. That stuff would drip and drain out of the grease gun on the shelf in the shop at 90 degrees F.
    Must be a common characteristic of red grease!
    REDGREASE_zps22ab185e.jpg

  12. #27
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Like all 1150s, mine shows the short non-contact area nearest the transmission. But the contact area appears to have worn in a linear faqshion, aligned with the axis of the shaft. I don't have the barrel shape which we saw with the K75s with faulty auxiliary cases.

    Paul, thanks for the update.

    Very interesting. Linear wear along the shaft. Perhaps it has been mentioned before, but this seems to be solid evidence that the Non fully engaged clutch hub of the 1150's is not responsible for the odd barrel wear seen on a lot of bikes.

  13. #28
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacque Jacque Shellacque View Post
    Paul, thanks for the update.

    Very interesting. Linear wear along the shaft. Perhaps it has been mentioned before, but this seems to be solid evidence that the Non fully engaged clutch hub of the 1150's is not responsible for the odd barrel wear seen on a lot of bikes.
    Barrel wear could happen when the clutch hub spline is near or after complete failure. That would jibe if the end of the shaft is slightly harder than the rest of the shaft, assuming the clutch hub is about equal hardness over its length.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  14. #29
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Barrel Shaped Spline Wear

    If the shaft is not a perfect 90 degrees to the plane of the disk hub (or put another way - exactly parallel and coincident with that hub) then the angular alignment can/will cause barrel shaped wear.

    I know of two causes:

    1. Bolting the transmission and engine case together in a manner that has the transmission shaft and crankshaft not in perfect alignment.

    2. A bent/deformed clutch housing which holds the disk in a position which "wobbles" on its axis.

    I have replaced a couple of clutch housings (flywheels with the starter ring gear) because by eye they were noticably bent. These pieces on Oilhead bikes are flat steel and are easily bent during either assembly or disassembly.

    When you take pone of these apart and find barrel shaped wear on the shaft, I would recommend that the first thing you do is check the axial runout (front-to-back) on the flywheel (clutch housing).
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  15. #30
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    When you take pone of these apart and find barrel shaped wear on the shaft, I would recommend that the first thing you do is check the axial runout (front-to-back) on the flywheel (clutch housing).
    Have you ever measured axial run out (i. e. an angle between the two axes)? That would seem to be very easy to minimize from a manufacturing methods standpoint. Radial run out on the other hand, isn't. Of course an accident could bend the clutch housing etc.....
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

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