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Thread: Removing Hot or Cold Nuts?

  1. #16
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    It just might be a veterinary tool.
    for nuts

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    SABMWRA MOA Club#62's Flat Fixer/ current forum moderator
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    for nuts

    Ouch!!!
    "The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers

  3. #18
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    In the last month I have acquired a 91 R100GS. I have been doing small maintenance, cleaning wheels, replacing wheel bearings, brakes, ect. ,until weather here breaks and the bike can be taken out and washed down properly. One of those priority items will be removing exhaust nuts. I am confused as to the opinions of correct type of anti-seize. It appears in the video, the opinion is, anything other than copper is "f$%#&*g crap". But having gone to http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/chemicalsetc.htm , I find information that advocates the use of Nickel paste. Can I get an explanation, other than what is spewed in the video, why copper is superior tho nickel.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIK View Post
    In the last month I have acquired a 91 R100GS. I have been doing small maintenance, cleaning wheels, replacing wheel bearings, brakes, ect. ,until weather here breaks and the bike can be taken out and washed down properly. One of those priority items will be removing exhaust nuts. I am confused as to the opinions of correct type of anti-seize. It appears in the video, the opinion is, anything other than copper is "f$%#&*g crap". But having gone to http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/chemicalsetc.htm , I find information that advocates the use of Nickel paste. Can I get an explanation, other than what is spewed in the video, why copper is superior tho nickel.
    Copper is definitely designed for hot temp. applications. At Rubbermaid, where I was a Purchasing agent and managed the parts department, we would ONLY use copper due to the fact that the machines ran extremely hot - especially at the injection end where the temps were like those that would be achieve on an motorcycle exhaust system.

    However I have used the nickel for years with no problem, IMO Chris Harris is simply overblowing the situation. If you take those exhaust nuts off on a regular basis (once per year or once every two years, you would have no problem

    I went to NAPA and bought a tube of the copper, so now I have both. I went and switched to copper on my exhaust nuts and other hot applications, but I still use the nickel everywhere else.

    The copper tube will last you a lifetime, and only costs if I remember correctly around $7.00.
    "The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers

  5. #20
    Administrator 20774's Avatar
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    In looking at the Technical Data Sheets found at the Permatex site, the difference between the nickel anti-seize and the copper anti-seize seems to be only in the upper temperature of the "protection". The copper goes to 1800F whereas the nickel goes to 2400F. The TDSs suggest that the nickel be used when copper contamination is to be avoided (not really our problem) and the copper is good for electrical conductivity (definitely not our problem). They both suggest they're good for exhaust manifold and system bolts. The nickel indicates that it shouldn't be used with ferrous type connections, but aluminum is not mentioned.

    So, it appears that they both do the same thing...nickel works up to a higher temperature. Why not use nickel! Higher is better right??
    Kurt -- Forum Administrator ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
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  6. #21
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    Reading the makeup of the Permatex Nickel anti-seize, it contains petroleum distillates, nickel, graphite, aluminum, lithium soap.

    I am getting both products do the job well. With the nickel, instead of checking exhaust nuts every 10 years??, a yearly or every two year schedule should be followed. And should they not be spun off and on at that interval anyway?

    I am guessing this comes down to personal preference?
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  7. #22
    Administrator 20774's Avatar
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    It's often suggested to loosen the nuts to reapply the anti-seize on a regular basis. I guess the stuff disappears over time. So, it would seem that is should be a part of routine maintenance.

    In my case, not doing that regularly was because of my first experience with my /7 and performing some maintenance before Al Gore invented the internet. I ruined one of the exhaust spigots because I didn't know squat. Fortunately, I had a local expert who welded a new spigot back on. Once those exhaust nuts were back on with anti-seize, I never touched them again for 30 years! I was just too gun shy. On my top end overhaul last year, I didn't flinch and cut them off without even trying to turn them. No way!

    On my R69S overhaul 8 years ago, I took a chance and turned the exhaust nuts...they both came off without a problem. They've been on and unturned since then.

    Will I try the routine maintenance on my /7 now? I'm not sure at this point...the grief I caused myself 30 years ago still lingers.
    Kurt -- Forum Administrator ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
    mine-ineye-deatheah-pielayah-jooa-kalayus. oolah-minane-hay-meeriah-kal-oyus-algay-a-thaykin', buddy!

  8. #23
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    Well, I just might go the route of cutting the present nuts off as I don't know their history, then move on from there with a regular routine.

    Thanks for your help.
    Safety Committee
    Frog Bayou Boys
    '91 R100GS "Bumblebee"
    '09 G650GS

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20774 View Post
    In looking at the Technical Data Sheets found at the Permatex site, the difference between the nickel anti-seize and the copper anti-seize seems to be only in the upper temperature of the "protection". The copper goes to 1800F whereas the nickel goes to 2400F. The TDSs suggest that the nickel be used when copper contamination is to be avoided (not really our problem) and the copper is good for electrical conductivity (definitely not our problem). They both suggest they're good for exhaust manifold and system bolts. The nickel indicates that it shouldn't be used with ferrous type connections, but aluminum is not mentioned.

    So, it appears that they both do the same thing...nickel works up to a higher temperature. Why not use nickel! Higher is better right??
    Nice research. I never could understand Chris Harris' hatred for the nickel. that I what I have used for years! Besides, if one simply does a re-coat every couple of years, neither should be a problem.

    Chris Harris keeps saying that the nickel "hardens" up, but I notice that the copper will harden up too, if not re-applied. I am still going to use either.
    "The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers

  10. #25
    Registered User lmo1131's Avatar
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    so.... why not give Kroil a shot at this before to start with the cuttin' 'n' whackin'? If, after a few days soaking, a rap with a rubber mallet on your exhauset-wrench doesn't do the the trick. Cut.

    "It is what you discover, after you know it all, that counts." _ John Wooden

    Lew Morris
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  11. #26
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    On my '78 R100/7 the nuts are right out there in the open, so popping them off and on with a new application of anti-seize is a piece of cake. About 5 minutes time! I did my nuts towards the end of Aug. Then later, about end of Sept. I had to fix both centerstand bolts. I had to remove the nuts and it was almost effortless. Of course, that was only a month or two.

    I will do at least once next summer, and we'll see then.
    "The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmo1131 View Post
    so.... why not give Kroil a shot at this before to start with the cuttin' 'n' whackin'? If, after a few days soaking, a rap with a rubber mallet on your exhauset-wrench doesn't do the the trick. Cut.

    When using stuff like this (or PB Blaster, my favorite) if you spray some on the nut/head, and then using a Bernzomatic just to carefully apply heat to the nut, expanding it, since it is expanding, and the head isn't (hopefully) the results is a gap in the threads that will tend to "suck" in the penetrant. After heating, and shutting off the Bernzomatic, spray again at the nut/head. Hopefully you will get enough in there to keep the nuts from galding up.
    "The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmo1131 View Post
    so.... why not give Kroil a shot at this before to start with the cuttin' 'n' whackin'? If, after a few days soaking, a rap with a rubber mallet on your exhauset-wrench doesn't do the the trick. Cut.


    I will try this first, thanks.
    Safety Committee
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20774 View Post
    The nickel indicates that it shouldn't be used with ferrous type connections, but aluminum is not mentioned.

    So, it appears that they both do the same thing...nickel works up to a higher temperature. Why not use nickel! Higher is better right??
    I also looked up the MSDS sheets for all three kinds that Permatex sells. I am wondering if the one that Chris Harris hated was the one that is primarily the aluminum one rather than the nickel one?

    I think the "silver" that I have (I would have to go out to my -2 Deg. garage to check and there is NO WAY I am doing than now!) is the cheaper aluminum one rather than the other two.

    What I noticed too, is that the nickel is recommended where copper would somehow interfere with use. It appears that Nickel would be the best all around.
    "The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmylee View Post
    When using stuff like this (or PB Blaster, my favorite) if you spray some on the nut/head, and then using a Bernzomatic just to carefully apply heat to the nut, expanding it, since it is expanding, and the head isn't (hopefully) the results is a gap in the threads that will tend to "suck" in the penetrant. After heating, and shutting off the Bernzomatic, spray again at the nut/head. Hopefully you will get enough in there to keep the nuts from galding up.
    Would suggest one alteration to the above. I would suggest heating the entire structure nice an warm. Not hot. You don't want to flash the solvent from the penetrant. Apply the penetrant after the parts are heated. Any air that is within the spaces between the threads, (small spaces and very tiny amounts of air) will expand and in doing so, will find a way out through the porous oxide. When you hit the warm metal with the cold penetrating oil, it will all contract, including the tiny amount of air and will suck the oil into fill the void.

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