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Thread: Checking for spline wear 1999 R1100S

  1. #46
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
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    I am curious, are there any high mileage 1150's that DON'T exhibit this wear pattern?

  2. #47
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    Read this article and look at the effects on the splines. Very similar to our problem.
    Keep in mind in the oilhead case the damping is past the input shaft splines inside the transmission. (unsprung clutch)
    I'm wondering about the "buzziness" @ 4000 rpm being the harmonic that causes the most wear


    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pa...balance-shafts

    Interesting, but I do not find this torsional whip idea feasible. The clutches of the 1100's and all airheads not damped either. Therefore this theory should apply to them as well.

  3. #48
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacque Jacque Shellacque View Post
    Interesting, but I do not find this torsional whip idea feasible. The clutches of the 1100's and all airheads not damped either. Therefore this theory should apply to them as well.
    Airheads especially later large displacement (R100) models had spline issues and spline lubrication was recommended, I think, at 10K miles intervals.
    Jammess

  4. #49
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammess View Post
    Airheads especially later large displacement (R100) models had spline issues and spline lubrication was recommended, I think, at 10K miles intervals.
    That's true. But airheads wear the splines evenly, not scalloped. My own R80RT has 360k KM and spline wear is negligible.

  5. #50
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacque Jacque Shellacque View Post
    That's true. But airheads wear the splines evenly, not scalloped. My own R80RT has 360k KM and spline wear is negligible.
    Also, in the case of the airhead corrosion and fretting of the input splines occurs which is not an oilhead issue. Point I was making is that input shaft issues didn't begin with the oil head. Also, power output of an R80 with 32 mm Bings is much different than that of an R100 with 40 mm carbs. Another big difference in your R80 and my R100 is the final drive. Your R80 most likely has a 34-11 FD ratio and my R100 came with a 32-11 FD. Hence, less loading on trans input shaft splines on your R80. Another reason I changed my FD to 34-11 and it does make 5th gear much more user friendly. Another reason I like the R1100 over the 1150 is the 1100 doesn't have 6th gear which imo makes the 1100 more spline friendly.
    Jammess

  6. #51
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacque Jacque Shellacque View Post
    That's true. But airheads wear the splines evenly, not scalloped. My own R80RT has 360k KM and spline wear is negligible.
    I don't know about scalloping, but my '75 airhead ate its spline @ ~25,000 miles many years ago. I know from trying to center things up last winter, that the engine and transmission axes are not aligned now, and the pilot diameters between the two won't let it align.

    In hindsight, I probably could have pursued it a little more last winter when I went thru the bike. Instead, I just decided to keep lubing it more frequently.

    I didn't learn anything from the "torsional whip" paper either. I think the guy is embroidering about the consequences of the second order torsional vibration inherent in any inline 4 cyl engine vs ways to counteract it.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  7. #52
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    The wear pattern on the shaft.........................wobble with wear.RB
    I think I understand what yuo meant here. You are suggesting that a warped flywheel or weird worn clutch disk would moment load the spline across the flex plate (spider).

    I don't think this is so as the number of loaded cycles (transmitting torque while slipping only) is so small that we would not be seeing the kind of high-cycle fretting wear products we are encountering. The flex plate should be soft enough in generating overturning moment into the spline hub, that the wear component would be miniscule. I doubt the flywheel face etc would have that much run out.

    The flex plate however is very stiff radially, and even a minor axes misalignment would generate a lot of spline wear dragging the clutch disc around. I figure the rotating radial force vector being applied to the spline in a misalignment is on the order of 1000 lbs. And it continues always being that full ~1,000 lb force vector every revolution whenever the engine is running and the clutch is released.

    Remember many bikes don't show spline wear at all. Unfortunately, not enough though.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  8. #53
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
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    This is a very interesting thread.

    I have never heard of these issues with a tranny input shaft wearing out when using a pilot bearing. Well, maybe in super high horsepower applications. Both Nissan and VW use the same sort of clutch design and I have rarely, has happened, seen input shaft splines wear out.

    Bottom line, in my opinion, when you release the clutch, the clutch plate drops a bit, the pressure plate grabs it, off center and hence, the wear.

    I am willing to go so far as to say that an urban bike will wear the input shaft much faster than a rural bike with fewer clutch inputs. I can say with absolute certainty, this problem is not unique to Oilhead Beemers but has been around a very long time.

    Torsional vibration I believe contributes. Center line of the crankshaft to the center line of the tranny contributes.

    I am a firm believer that gravity is the real culprit.

    Keep posting though and don't accept my opinion. I am learning a lot from this thread.
    1997 R1100RT (Restored Basket Case) , 1981 KZ 440 LTD (Restored Basket Case)
    1986 K75S(the beutch), 1993 K1100RS (blown engine), 1997 Chev Short Box (4x4 with an LT1)
    "You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."

  9. #54
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    Engine to tranny alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by nrpetersen View Post
    I don't know about scalloping, but my '75 airhead ate its spline @ ~25,000 miles many years ago. I know from trying to center things up last winter, that the engine and transmission axes are not aligned now, and the pilot diameters between the two won't let it align.

    In hindsight, I probably could have pursued it a little more last winter when I went thru the bike. Instead, I just decided to keep lubing it more frequently.

    I didn't learn anything from the "torsional whip" paper either. I think the guy is embroidering about the consequences of the second order torsional vibration inherent in any inline 4 cyl engine vs ways to counteract it.
    Curious what you found to prove your airhead alignment was out of spec?

    In my case - 1983 R100RT @ 179,000km on original input shaft by way of records (I've had since 110,00kms) and I have the transmission out at this point as I'm working with a paddle disc as an upgrade project.
    I've dialed both the engine belhousing surfaces, as well the tranny face and protruding support lips and found:
    -transmission shaft has potential to move 0.002" when loaded to side, but provides zero's when measurements are taken relaxed with shaft facing vertical.
    -engine flywheel would move roughly 0.002" again (via main bearing) when coaxed with a pry bar, but provided immeasurable runout.
    -I was suspicious of the "smallish" line up lips on the bottom two points of the transmission (the piloting is not continuous but provided by short sections of material coming from the tranny side into engine side recessions), but those appear quite normal and unworn.

    Curious how line up is controled on the oilhead six speed, is it via dowels? Has anyone documented "misalignment" by taking measurements?

    Lorne.

  10. #55
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacque Jacque Shellacque View Post
    Interesting, but I do not find this torsional whip idea feasible. The clutches of the 1100's and all airheads not damped either. Therefore this theory should apply to them as well.

    Yes, but those have full spline engagement.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  11. #56
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R100RTurbo View Post
    Curious what you found to prove your airhead alignment was out of spec?

    In my case - 1983 R100RT @ 179,000km on original input shaft by way of records (I've had since 110,00kms) and I have the transmission out at this point as I'm working with a paddle disc as an upgrade project.
    I've dialed both the engine belhousing surfaces, as well the tranny face and protruding support lips and found:
    -transmission shaft has potential to move 0.002" when loaded to side, but provides zero's when measurements are taken relaxed with shaft facing vertical.
    -engine flywheel would move roughly 0.002" again (via main bearing) when coaxed with a pry bar, but provided immeasurable runout.
    -I was suspicious of the "smallish" line up lips on the bottom two points of the transmission (the piloting is not continuous but provided by short sections of material coming from the tranny side into engine side recessions), but those appear quite normal and unworn.

    Curious how line up is controled on the oilhead six speed, is it via dowels? Has anyone documented "misalignment" by taking measurements?

    Lorne.
    2 hollow dowels are used to align the tranny to the engine on the 6 speed.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  12. #57
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
    Attachment 42630Attachment 42631Attachment 42632Attachment 42633

    No, they are on their way to looking like this:



    Now, trust me on this: the splines on the clutch disk remain straight as they wear. You can see that in the pictures, too.
    Again looking at the R1150 input shaft wear pattern, I think it is telling that all the wear is right where the clutch hub splines end. It is fascinating that the end of the hub (a softer material) can cause so much wear and at what looks like a 5 degree angle on the input splines.

    I'm thinking that with full insertion, that end of the clutch hub is moved past the end of the splines, eliminating whatever the end-of-hub cutting effect is. It will be interesting to see GSAddicts when he eventually pulls the transmission.
    Last edited by roger 04 rt; 12-09-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  13. #58
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Does anyone know why BMW went to the hydraulic clutch on the oil head? What advantage does the hydraulic clutch have over cable operated in this application? I certainly can't see how the hydraulic clutch benefits we the end users.
    Jammess

  14. #59
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R100RTurbo View Post
    Curious what you found to prove your airhead alignment was out of spec? .
    It stripped out the spline suddenly about 1995 at about 25,000 miles. That was before this forum etc & I thought it might be because there was no obvious factory lube in the area. Just lotsa rust and grey stuff inside the clutch housing. I replaced everything (shaft and clutch disk) & reassembled using Neva Seize lube.

    Recently I opened it up again to relube with that same anti seize. Things looked good (i. e. no real wear) but there probably were only an additional 5,000 miles on the bike (the odometer had quit). On reassembly, I left the bolts between the engine and transmission very slightly loose and started the engine. By bridging the interface with my finger, despite the pilot diameters I could feel a slight breathing whenever the clutch was let out. I tried releasing and re-engaging the clutch many times (maybe 20) but was never able to get that micro-motion detected by my bridging finger to go away, or even to change. Something was prying between the clutch/transmission rotation axis and the crankshaft axis. The alignment between the two is determined by a pilot diameter which is near the OD of the entire clutch housing - perhaps 10 inches in diameter. Not to be casually distorted.

    I decided that reworking that large a pilot diameter was practically hopeless & that re-lubing was the best way out of this dilemma. In hindsight, maybe I should have tried to at least find out the geometric nature of the alignment error.

    I now suspect that partial circumference shims might deform the pilot interface enough to eliminate the error. But how much? and where? The assembly is absolutely blind & I didn't feel like tearing the transmission apart again just to indicate on the input bearing bore like I had done with another R1100 bike here in town (see my post number 65 at http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthre...e-please/page5). I should have checked the crankshaft bearing clearances with a dial indicator, but didn't. I did try a quick multi-directional set of prys on the flywheel but didn't feel anything significant.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  15. #60
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    Hollow Dowel Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    2 hollow dowels are used to align the tranny to the engine on the 6 speed.
    Well, if a mis-alignment issue did exist on a six speed, I think all can agree that stress and wear to the beleaguered "mostly engaged" splines would benefit/ reduce from a correction.
    How to do?
    Perhaps a ring might be machined accurately with dowel pin center line established that could be located onto either engine or transmission (dowel protruding one side, with recess the other) to dial each side and denote correction required. Offset dowels might be tough to machine with such potentially small corrections, or oversized ream fitted on a corrected circle. Obviously a repair shop tool - perhaps this is in existence?
    I concur with the opinion that gaining full spline engagement (especially when it runs out so close to disc center line on a rather flexible plate) would be beneficial, just another opinion however.

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