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Thread: Checking for spline wear 1999 R1100S

  1. #31
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
    It might be more accurate if you said that you don't understand how they can appear to wear non-conjugal.

    For everyone else reading this thread, you might want to read this thread instead:
    http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?56977

    Same thing. The parts must wear the same way, what do you mean they don't, have you ever seen them wear differently, OMG you are right look at the pics, etc. Start at post 50 or 60 if you don't have time for all of them.
    That was quite a thread! I reread the whole thing & I still agree with what I posted there two years ago. A couple of points on reflection:

    1) Maybe the reason FWD automobile splines don't fail from manufacturing errors (per post 34 by jconway607 of the referenced thread) is the slight radial compliance of the clutch damper spring system. Our bikes have no torsional damper springs, but instead only a flex plate which is probably radially a lot stiffer. As a result we are probably a lot more sensitive to clutch housing manufacturing errors.

    2) I think ferrous oxide (the grey wear debris stuff inside failing clutch housings) is still magnetic, but clutch disk wear products are probably not. If so, sweeping the area around the spline with a magnet with the starter removed would show the relative quality of the alignment-caused wear a particular bike. At least it might be better than simply a visual evaluation.

    3) Just maybe there is a greater clutch spline wear contribution from the crankshaft main bearing clearance than we have been realizing. Do you check for rear main bearing clearance in all radial directions when you find a bad spline system? I read in the Pelican Parts site post by Bill Pierce that he only saw like .0015" clearance. I wonder if he misread the indicator (unlikely given the quality of the rest of his posts) or if he didn't happen to check in the worst direction?

    When I did my sole spline failure forensics, I found reasonable main bearing clearance in one axis, but over .007" in an odd direction - sort of like the bearing shell was worn in a race track or oval manner. It didn't require a dial indicator as the clunk would have been obvious to anyone handling the screwdriver pry bar.

    4) (edit) I tried keeping the transmission slightly loose (as I proposed in a post in the referenced string) from the engine when I re-did spline lube on my R90/6 a year ago. There was a quite perceptible "breathing" between the two whenever the clutch was let out, but I was unable to find a happier combination that allowed the transmission to align any better with the engine.

    You are correct that maybe I should have said I don't understand how these splines wear, but I know gear theory (splines are a subset of gears), manufacturing practices, and failure forensics from elsewhere, including the school of very hard knocks.
    Last edited by nrpetersen; 12-07-2013 at 09:10 PM.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  2. #32
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratze View Post
    all oilheads take the same clutch disc, this is what you want to do. pop the rivets and install a 3/16 shim between hub and disc itself. you will need longer rivets and to shorten up your pushrod 3/16inch as well. bmw should be ashamed at the release of such a debackel, happy motoring, and run em like ya stole em.
    Hang on... They are not the same. The 1100 and 1150 have different clutch disc part numbers. And if you go back to post 15 this misconception has already been corrected from someone who fixes them every day for a living.
    http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthre...l=1#post911234
    Last edited by happy wanderer; 12-08-2013 at 08:45 AM.
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  3. #33
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratze View Post
    all oilheads take the same clutch disc, this is what you want to do. pop the rivets and install a 3/16 shim between hub and disc itself. you will need longer rivets and to shorten up your pushrod 3/16inch as well. bmw should be ashamed at the release of such a debackel, happy motoring, and run em like ya stole em.
    That is almost complete hogwash.
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  4. #34
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
    That is almost complete hogwash.
    +1000
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    It's all about the details.

  5. #35
    Registered User PAS's Avatar
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    Anton, Are the number of spline failures roughly the same whether its a hydraulic clutch or cable operated?

  6. #36
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
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    The failures seem FAR more common on the R1150-type 6-speed, which happens to be hydraulic. There is no transmission/clutch design which has both cable and hydraulic for comparison.
    Anton Largiader 72724
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  7. #37
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    The shafts look so similar, do you believe the cause is the same for all of them? How many miles on the shafts you've shown? Do you replace parts or try and work out alignment errors?
    30k miles seems like a typical failure point if the bike is going to fail, and the failures seem the same to me. I see gradual wear on many other bikes at higher mileage, but there seems to be a cluster of failures around 30k. I think I have described in other threads how I replace everything, and how I came to that.
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  8. #38
    Aspiring Profligate jeff488's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
    Attachment 42630Attachment 42631Attachment 42632Attachment 42633

    No, they are on their way to looking like this:



    Now, trust me on this: the splines on the clutch disk remain straight as they wear. You can see that in the pictures, too.
    Isn't this wear pattern due to axial rather than radial misalignment?

    Or do I just not understand the mechanics of it?
    Not arguing, just curious.
    '04 Silver R1150RT "Big Oel". '05 Yellow KLR 650
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  9. #39
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
    30k miles seems like a typical failure point if the bike is going to fail, and the failures seem the same to me. I see gradual wear on many other bikes at higher mileage, but there seems to be a cluster of failures around 30k. I think I have described in other threads how I replace everything, and how I came to that.
    I read through everything linked through these posts and understand your approach now thanks. You've been very generous with your knowledge and data.

    I think I have some wear (30K miles) with 1/16" movement at the perimeter of the clutch disk. Big issue for me is do I open it up to lube and inspect. When I eventually do, if it needs an input shaft, the transmission will be headed your way. That operation would be beyond my experience and it's not something I'd want to learn on the job.

    I am still fascinated by the consistency of the curved, sculpted, wear pattern on the input shaft. I am starting to believe there would be merit in a full input shaft to clutch hub engagement.

    RB

  10. #40
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    I have to eat some of my words that Anton has been complaining about.

    I now contend the reason most of the transmission input shaft spline wear occurs closest to the transmission on virtually all his pictures, is the radial load on the spline has to be approximately centered under the flex plate (clutch spider plate). The flex plate is not attached to the clutch hub at its longitudinal center. Instead it is located closer to the transmission end than the engine end. This can be seen by comparing the numerous photos of clutch hubs that are taken from the engine end. Photos from the transmission end are almost non-existant, but I found ONE in the last photo of post 70 of the above referenced Pelican Parts thread.

    This revelation suggests to me that 1) additional spline engagement proposed by others (i. e. manufacturing a longer hub to get 1/4 inch more engagement) at the engine end will not offer any benefit, and 2) anything that moves the hub still closer to the engine (i. e. Ratze suggested adding a spacer under the rivets in post 32 above) will actually worsen the radial load carrying capability of the spline elements.

    Later (2-10-14) I now don't think the flex plate has much to do with the wear pattern. It has to be progressive due to the harder shaft spline near the tip. The sharply curved wear pattern on some of Anton's PIX have to be due to a failed spline - not just a worn one.

    This also means that the worn spline surfaces may not be exactly conjugal (Anton's contention and his photos), as the hub axis is deforming non parallel (under radial load in the presence of misalignment) to either the engine or the transmission axis. The flex plate (clutch spider) allows such deformation. Being conjugal requires the rotation axes to remain fixed in service. The flex plate eliminates this possibility.

    Can we agree on this?
    Last edited by nrpetersen; 02-11-2014 at 03:00 AM.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  11. #41
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    The wear pattern on the shaft, with its curved shape remains very telling. I like Anton's solution of replacing the shaft and all clutch parts, which he says from experience works. Here's why it makes sense to me.

    Looking at the clutch disk, it has 5 flexible arms. This helps the clutch system to accommodate any clutch disk planarity issues. Setting aside misalignment for a moment, almost any of the parts of the clutch system could produce an error in planarity with the clutch disengaged. When fully engaged, the housing covers control final planarity, which replacing the clutch pack would resolve as Anton says in 99.x% of cases.

    Fully engaged, a planarity error puts a load on the input shaft that could cause wear.

    As you engage the clutch, the load from a planarity error will progress radially around the shaft until all surfaces and shafts are moving at the same speed, in a sort of wobble. Try and imagine what that would do if the shaft to hub engagement were less than it is.

    Either fully or partially engaged, once wear begins if there is a planarity error, it's not hard to imagine wear accelerating.

    So I think I'd take Anton's approach which uses available parts and doesn't require an alignment analysis and repair. Then, myself, I'd take the added step of a Bruno's extended hub (since GSAddict's shaft isn't available) for full engagement to reduce any tendency of a planarity error to progress during engagement or wobble with wear.
    RB

  12. #42
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    ..............Fully engaged, a planarity error puts a load on the input shaft that could cause wear...................
    I'm not sure what you mean by a "planarity error". Do you mean an angle between the transmission vs engine axes? or do you mean a radial discrepancy between those two axes?

    I contend that these failures are caused by a small radial discrepancy that is making the transmission shaft drag the engaged clutch disc around the flywheel face - every revolution.

    There is no easy way to measure the radial discrepancy except to make a fixture & dial indicate to the inside of a disassembled transmission case.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  13. #43
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Assuming that there are no radial or axial alignment errors of the shaft centerlines, by planarity I'm referring to the clutch housing, and/or the unloaded clutch disk being in a purely square-radial plane to the engine and transmission shaft centerline. That is the issue I'm commenting on in my last post. There may be a better term for what I'm describing.

  14. #44
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Torsional whip

    Read this article and look at the effects on the splines. Very similar to our problem.
    Keep in mind in the oilhead case the damping is past the input shaft splines inside the transmission. (unsprung clutch)
    I'm wondering about the "buzziness" @ 4000 rpm being the harmonic that causes the most wear


    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pa...balance-shafts
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  15. #45
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    Read this article and look at the effects on the splines. Very similar to our problem.
    Keep in mind in the oilhead case the damping is past the input shaft splines inside the transmission. (unsprung clutch)
    I'm wondering about the "buzziness" @ 4000 rpm being the harmonic that causes the most wear


    http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pa...balance-shafts
    Don't know if anyone has pointed to this sight yet: www.rbracing-rsr.com I found this sight several years ago and saved it for future reference just in case, scroll down to about midway in this link to the section on BMW clutches. At about 36K miles I did a spline lube/inspection on my '04RT and found splines to be pristine with absolutely no wear. It is interesting what Anton says about spline issues mainly having to do with the 6 speed trans models. The way I have ridden my bike since new is to hardly ever use 6th gear and I wonder if this mode of operation has contributed to negligible spline wear. Since installing a wideband O2 sensor with LC-1 which resulted in a much improved low end power output I have found 6th gear much more usable but I can't help but wonder what increased 6th gear use will over time mean for the trans input shaft splines. Hmmmmm...
    Jammess

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