Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 176

Thread: Checking for spline wear 1999 R1100S

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Santa Clarita, Ca.
    Posts
    12

    Question Checking for spline wear 1999 R1100S

    I thought I saw a thread somewhere that briefly mentioned that if you remove the starter you can see if your splines are wearing. Is this true? I can't seem to locate the thread that mentioned it but I've got my left TB pulled because I just did the cam tensioner up grade and I figured while that's out of the way I'd pull the starter to see what I can see.
    Current Rides;
    1999 R1100S
    1988 Ducati Paso 750

  2. #2
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    between SanAntone & the Weird Place, TX
    Posts
    5,906
    try this: talked about around post #34

    http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthre...ht=spline+lube
    Steve Henson
    SABMWRA MOA Club#62's Flat Fixer/ current forum moderator
    It's not the breaths you take, but the moments that take your breath away-D.Dillon/G. Strait

  3. #3
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Pickering, Ontario
    Posts
    87
    Quote Originally Posted by ahdoman View Post
    I thought I saw a thread somewhere that briefly mentioned that if you remove the starter you can see if your splines are wearing. Is this true? I can't seem to locate the thread that mentioned it but I've got my left TB pulled because I just did the cam tensioner up grade and I figured while that's out of the way I'd pull the starter to see what I can see.
    I have my R1150RS in pieces now for a spline inspection / lube. FWIW, I measure about 6 to 7 mm of free play between the clutch plate and the input shaft. Since my eye's are not as good as they used to be, I took hi res photos of the splines on both the clutch and shaft. On the computer I can zoom in for the visual inspection with very good resolution. Its difficult to estimate, but I think the shaft has worn perhaps 20% off the leading edge. On the other hand, the clutch spline is likely closer to about 40-50% wear. Most of that wear is on the leading edge, but perhaps 10% is on the trailing edge. Of course through the starter opening, it may be a little harder to measure the free play. As noted in many threads before, the clutch plate hangs off the edge of the shaft and does not fully engage. This from a company that prides itself on engineering? I have to wonder if its a case of built in obsolesence.

    paul
    Last edited by Blacque Jacque Shellacque; 12-06-2013 at 05:45 AM.

  4. #4
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    1,911
    These spline threads raise an interesting question. If one wished to actually ask BMW "Why did you design this part this way?" just how would one go about doing that in order to get a meaningful answer?

    You certainly can't do it at a dealer, that much I know. Most are busy towing the company line or they just don't know. Maybe the MOA carries enough weight with the US Motorrad guys to ask such engineering and design questions on behalf of a a lot of owners?
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  5. #5
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    1,359
    Yes, it's true. A new condition spline will have no perceptible play. i don't have a good mental calibration of a 50% worn one because I never take them apart to know they are 50% worn. I know what a stripped one is like...

    I suppose you could calculate the wear by number-crunching the spline dimensions. Haven't done that myself.
    Anton Largiader 72724
    largiader.com bmwra.org

  6. #6
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    1,911
    Quote Originally Posted by ahdoman View Post
    I thought I saw a thread somewhere that briefly mentioned that if you remove the starter you can see if your splines are wearing. Is this true? I can't seem to locate the thread that mentioned it but I've got my left TB pulled because I just did the cam tensioner up grade and I figured while that's out of the way I'd pull the starter to see what I can see.
    I did some digging and found a short and pretty crappy video I shot a couple years ago of my 1100RT clutch disk play with the starter removed. I had zip tied the clutch pulled in all the way to release the clutch, put a paint mark across the pressure plate, disc and cover plate and then just wiggled it up and down. This is what splines in great condition with 21,800 miles should look like when you do this. Note that I am pushing up and down a bit more than the actual "bump" points to feel out and sort of test the limits, and the shorter "bump" points are where contact was felt. If you crank up the volume you can sort of hear the contact limits. So just a couple of millimeters play I think. Apologies for the background radio and left handed phone cam amateur hour but it gives you an idea of what you are looking for. An easy non invasive way to check up on things in there.
    Click on the image to play.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  7. #7
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,254
    HW,
    That's about how mine looked.

    I've read in other posts that debris (reddish or blackish) in the flywheel/clutch housing area is an indication of wear. It looks like you have some reddish dust in the video. What do you attribute that to and also I'd be interested in what kind of dust clutch disk wear (normal) would deposit.
    RB

  8. #8
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    minnetonka mn
    Posts
    600
    That spline in the video has probably +/- 1 mm of motion at the disk OD, which would suggest to me that it is only about 1/3 worn out. Plus-minus 3 mm (about 1/4 inch total backlash) is probably the wear limit and spline failure will be happening soon. The tangential clearance in the spline teeth is about 1/10 the backlash at the OD of the clutch disk.

    The red stuff and the grey stuff in the clutch housing (especially around the spline area) is from metal-metal steel fretting wear products. The gray is ferrous oxide, the red is ferric oxide. FWIW the clutch housing in my R1100RT at 24000 miles was clean and free of both. I probably should not have taken it apart & instead just greased it with a hypodermic system.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  9. #9
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Posts
    538

    That is a very astute observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by nrpetersen View Post
    That spline in the video has probably +/- 1 mm of motion at the disk OD, which would suggest to me that it is only about 1/3 worn out. Plus-minus 3 mm (about 1/4 inch total backlash) is probably the wear limit and spline failure will be happening soon. The tangential clearance in the spline teeth is about 1/10 the backlash at the OD of the clutch disk.

    The red stuff and the grey stuff in the clutch housing (especially around the spline area) is from metal-metal steel fretting wear products. The gray is ferrous oxide, the red is ferric oxide. FWIW the clutch housing in my R1100RT at 24000 miles was clean and free of both. I probably should not have taken it apart & instead just greased it with a hypodermic system.

    I remember a time when I understood the difference between Ferric and Ferrous. Gone now. Really though, some of the greases that wick should work fine? Warm the grease in the syringe like you do for Torrington bearings? Why not try?

    You would know after some miles when you saw the Ferric or Ferrous oxides. Ferric Oxides are the crystal formation?
    1997 R1100RT (Restored Basket Case) , 1981 KZ 440 LTD (Restored Basket Case)
    1986 K75S(the beutch), 1993 K1100RS (blown engine), 1997 Chev Short Box (4x4 with an LT1)
    "You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."

  10. #10
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Pickering, Ontario
    Posts
    87
    Here are a some pictures of the clutch plate splines. Measured free play was 6-7mm total. It would be difficult to determine how many more miles before these would fail, but I doubt failure was imminent. Mileage is 117k KM, or 72k miles.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Sechelt, British Columbia
    Posts
    1,259
    seen the tips even sharper than that.......though these are on their way.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  12. #12
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Pickering, Ontario
    Posts
    87
    Now the input shaft splines. If you look close, the wear is not even. There seems to be a slight taper with more wear closer to the case. I am not sure how that is even possible. It's as if the clutch disk which we know is not fully engaged on the shaft, and is left hanging off the end, was actually wobbling! But we know that's impossible, because the disk is sandwiched tightly by the pressure plate, and the clutch plate, right? Since the plate mounts properly on the 1100 models, I am curious if the wear pattern is the same or more uniform as one would expect.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Sechelt, British Columbia
    Posts
    1,259
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacque Jacque Shellacque View Post
    Now the input shaft splines. If you look close, the wear is not even. There seems to be a slight taper with more wear closer to the case. I am not sure how that is even possible. It's as if the clutch disk which we know is not fully engaged on the shaft, and is left hanging off the end, was actually wobbling! But we know that's impossible, because the disk is sandwiched tightly by the pressure plate, and the clutch plate, right? Since the plate mounts properly on the 1100 models, I am curious if the wear pattern is the same or more uniform as one would expect.
    It's very typical of what I have observed on the 6 speeds. Agreed it's hard to believe its possible, one would think the front of the spline would have the worse wear.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  14. #14
    Registered User Blacque Jacque Shellacque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Pickering, Ontario
    Posts
    87
    Quote Originally Posted by happy wanderer View Post
    These spline threads raise an interesting question. If one wished to actually ask BMW "Why did you design this part this way?" just how would one go about doing that in order to get a meaningful answer?

    You certainly can't do it at a dealer, that much I know. Most are busy towing the company line or they just don't know. Maybe the MOA carries enough weight with the US Motorrad guys to ask such engineering and design questions on behalf of a a lot of owners?
    Simple, the clutch plate was designed for the R1100 not the 1150's. The 1150's have a 6 speed transmission and a hydraulic clutch. Instead of updating the part for the newer transmission, BMW decided to save a few bucks and reuse the older part. What other possible conclusion can be drawn?. I always find it interesting how all of us owners analyze, discuss, argue and speculate as to why these failures occur. BMW knows exactly what causes these failures. They have engineers that do failure analysis. But the truth will never be known due to liability and possibly loss of reputation. In the end, its always about the $$

  15. #15
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    1,359
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacque Jacque Shellacque View Post
    Simple, the clutch plate was designed for the R1100 not the 1150's.
    How do you mean that? It's a different plate, with a different hub, different spline and a different diameter.
    Anton Largiader 72724
    largiader.com bmwra.org

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •