Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 175

Thread: Starter or Battery 2004 R1150RT

  1. #76
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    Today I ran a cold start test using a 13.7 volt source to power the Motronic and fuel pump/injectors. I found a very interesting result regarding dwell time. Keep in mind that I have new stick coils installed.

    Before getting to today's result, yesterday when I cold-started with a stand-alone battery whose voltage was 11.7 volts powering fuel pump/injectors and Motronic, the after-start stick coil dwell was about 1.7 mS.

    Today (same config) using a 13.7 volt source--my car's battery with the alternator running--the dwell time was 0.5 mS, that's 1/3 of the dwell compared to using the 11.7 volt source. And the start was not as robust as when I used the 11.7 volt source.

    The difference is that the coils had 13.7 volts on them today (note to self: check voltage on the other side of the key which powers the sticks) and the Motronic read my second battery also 13.7. Yesterday, the Motronic read the second battery at 11.7 but the coils had actually 13.7V. So the combination of a high voltage at the sticks but the Motronic thinking it was a low voltage leading to longer dwell produced a spark that better combused the mixture.

    I'm floored! Who would have guessed that the Motronic sets dwell partly based on battery voltage? And that a stronger spark would lead to a better start!!

    RB

  2. #77
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Florence, OR.
    Posts
    615
    That is indeed interesting Roger. Kind of makes me wish for a good old set of points and a feeler gauge. Well, almost.

    Jim
    Jammess

  3. #78
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    Hi Jim. Kinda feeling that way too.

    Below is a chart of the starting parameters for 11.7 vs 13.6 (Motronic and injectors). One of the reasons that 11.7 works so we'll is that the sticks have 9-10 volts during cranking then 13.6 volts once running but the Motronic only sees 11.7 so calculates a long dwell.

    Notice in the chart how much faster the rpm builds in the 11.7 volt case compared to the 13.6. That seems to be due to inadequate dwell at the higher voltage case.

    Also note that the Motronic has no way to adaptively learn low battery voltage corrections for coils and injects during cold start.


  4. #79
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Abbotsford, BC Canada
    Posts
    85
    Voltage corrective tables, Cranking Dwell settings/ fuel enrichments/ priming pulse widths/ etc. are all there if you want them (well, with MS that is).

    Here is a link to Phil Tobins "Tuner Studio" tuning software and other stuff. All free on the lite edition, the advance product (and subsequent new releases) for a one time very low $ number. This is just a newsletter (for a new release of MS 2.5 on Tuner Studio) but you can see some of the tools that are available (pretty well anything you want to do, log, or change on bikes operation. The new "Horse Power and Torque" gauges are beckoning me, I will have to add a GPS.

    http://www.efianalytics.com/email/20...ewsLetter.html

    Just another way to skin the cat as they say.

  5. #80
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    It would be great to be able to adjust these older motors. The data I've taken strongly suggest that the injection and dwell voltage correction tables are inadequate. Get them right and my motor starts from dead cold in about a second. Get them wrong due to low battery (or my manipulation) and the engine labors for 10-15 seconds.

  6. #81
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    Ran a 5th discharge cycle today. Believe that I have maxed-out the recovery at 90% of total amp-hours. Odyssey says that if you don't get 80%, replace the battery!

    It looks like due to under-charging my 16 aH PC680 is now a 14.4 aH battery. At least that's up from about 11 aH when I began reconditioning it. Charging overnight I'll try a cold start in the morning.

    RB

  7. #82
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Farmington Hills, MI
    Posts
    15
    This is a very informative thread and I Just want to confirm I have the correct "take a ways":

    First, conventional battery chargers and tenders will damage an AGM battery if used over an extended period of time. A temperature compensated AGM charger should be used if an AGM batterties requires recharging.

    Second, since AGM batteries have a long storage life, a battery tender is not needed for winter stoage if the battery is fully charged and all current draws are eliminated.

    Since I really don't want to pull the fairings on my 03' RT to disconnect the AGM battery, is there any other "key off" current draw besides the RID?

    Thanks
    Ken S
    03 R1150RT

  8. #83
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Posts
    548

    You do know what the acronym "AGM" is?

    You do know what the acronym "AGM" is? It's not magically scientifically like.
    1997 R1100RT (Restored Basket Case) , 1981 KZ 440 LTD (Restored Basket Case)
    1986 K75S(the beutch), 1993 K1100RS (blown engine), 1997 Chev Short Box (4x4 with an LT1)
    "You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."

  9. #84
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    Quote Originally Posted by nosvamos View Post
    This is a very informative thread and I Just want to confirm I have the correct "take a ways":

    First, conventional battery chargers and tenders will damage an AGM battery if used over an extended period of time. A temperature compensated AGM charger should be used if an AGM batterties requires recharging.

    Second, since AGM batteries have a long storage life, a battery tender is not needed for winter stoage if the battery is fully charged and all current draws are eliminated.

    Since I really don't want to pull the fairings on my 03' RT to disconnect the AGM battery, is there any other "key off" current draw besides the RID?

    Thanks
    I can't say for sure that it applies to all AGM batteries but what you've outlined is what Odyssey says about the batteries they make. They also say that in the "bulk" charge model charging current for the pc680 should be greater than 6 amps. (I'm getting a manual-style charger which will double as a power source for more sensitivity test. Then I'll put my Odyssey charger onto the flea market. AD IN FLEA MARKET.)

    The key-off connections are: RID, MOTRONIC, ABS, and Flasher Relay. In another thread someone (GSAddict I believe) said a couple milliamps. If that's the case you would lose 2 aH per 8 weeks.

    RB

  10. #85
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    Just finished a 6th discharge cycle. The PC680 delivered a full 16 amp-hours.

    It looks like with enough charge/discharge, and with the correct charger, the pc680 can be brought back to full performance. It seems like 2 days on the odyssey charger did the trick. It now has 50% more capacity than when I began charge/discharge a couple weeks ago.

    Will run another cold start cycle tomorrow. Things are looking good.
    RB

  11. #86
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    Well as far as the starting issue goes, it seems to be wrapped up. I took a full set of 40F cold-start data: GS-911 and LC-1. A strong, properly charged PC680 what what it needed.

    The battery voltage when I pressed the Start Button dropped to 10.4V, compared to 7-8V when I started the project.

    From the time the starter button was pressed until the time the motor reached 1150 RPM was somewhere between 0.75 and 0.95 seconds.

    All the sensors are well-behaved, particularly Spark Advance, Dwell and Injection time.

    The AFR chart moves smoothly to its various after-start and warm-up enrichments and is well behaved. A second battery would probably make it a little stronger but that would be a project for another time.

    So when I get some time I'll add the diode to the alternator so that I don't have to use the charger so often to finish charging the battery after short rides.

    You gotta love the PC680, I undercharged it for a year and it's come back 100%.

    RB

  12. #87
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    A friend with a 1996 R1100RT saw this thread and decided to run an amp-hr test on his 6 month-old PC680 battery. It came up just short of 10 aH. At the 2 amp rate of discharge this means the battery was just below 2/3 charged even though the OCV (open circuit voltage) was 12.9V which would indicate fully charged.

    It will be interesting to see how much capacity he can recover using the Odyssey recharge procedure.
    RB

  13. #88
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Sechelt, British Columbia
    Posts
    1,281
    Quote Originally Posted by dieselyoda View Post
    You do know what the acronym "AGM" is? It's not magically scientifically like.
    I own a company, I know.

    Annual General Meeting
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  14. #89
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,275
    Just before opening my bike up so that I can add a diode to the regulator (a nasty job, with lots of stuff to remove), on a hunch, I tried starting after a cold-soak with the BoosterPlug disconnected. I only tried it once but it seemed to start quicker, a bit.

    With the BoosterPlug attached, the Motronic sees air temperature 36 degrees colder than oil temperature. In my case it was 40F at the oil, and 4F at the air temp with the BP. It seems possible to me that it sees those unequal temps as a sign that the bike has not cold-soaked. In other words that the bike's oil isn't fully cooled off--a sheer speculative comment in my part.

    What I can say with certainty is that the injection pulse at start was a little longer without the BP.

    Curious.

    RB

  15. #90
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    1,941
    That's pretty interesting Roger. I wonder if you've found a side effect of the booster plug or if this behaviour is intentionally programmed in the firmware. I wish a Motronic software engineer would go rogue and fill us in.
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •