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Thread: Starter or Battery 2004 R1150RT

  1. #31
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quick updates to this ongoing saga:

    DY suggested looking at the grounds. Good idea, checked them by measuring high current voltage drop, they are fine. I also took out the BMW wiring CD. The grounding is certainly not obvious. In stock condition, there are four ground wires that connect to the battery and only one of them is a direct connection to the transmission. At some point I will do a thread on this. However, the Motronic, Alternator and Generator all get their grounds from the transmission/engine connection and as a result, any drop in the large cable from battery to transmission would affect measurements and operation.

    Today I connected the fuel injectors to a car battery with the car running, adding a volt to the injectors during my cold start test (12.4V to 13.4V or thereabouts). With everything else connected normally, the battery voltage low as it has been. The motorcycle started quickly and ran smoothly. So the cause of my problems is low battery voltage during starting and the effect is lower voltage at the injectors that the Motronic can't/doesn't compensate enough for during starting, which is Open Loop operation.

    Also, I discharged the battery for 20 minutes with the headlight, rode the motorcycle for an hour. Came back, turned on the headlights, lo and behold, the battery voltage with the headlights on but the bike not running was 12.5V for 5 minutes or so. This is 0.4V more than I have recorded in any log that I have in the past year for the same condition.

    So it looks like GSAddict nailed it, the problem is that I've undercharged the battery for the past year and a half. I will discharge/charge it per detailed recommendations (that I'll post later) from Odyssey.
    RB
    Last edited by Roger 04 RT; 10-09-2013 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #32
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Great work Roger! Those are some very important findings.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  3. #33
    Left Coast Rider
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    What I know about electricity could be written on the head of a pin - but I'm impressed as all get out with the knowledge available from the people on this Forum.


  4. #34
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
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    Nice going Roger. This problem probably goes unnoticed most of the time. Your persistent troubleshooting is exemplary! I think I've managed to avoid low voltage issues by using an Odyssey approved charger on a regular basis on two of my bikes that are equipped with that battery.

    They don't seem to be available in N.A. any longer but I found some in Europe and Zambia for example. If you can get your hands on one at a reasonable price the OptiMate AccuMate Pro 12V-7A-S Battery Charger is what GSAddict and I both use on our Odyssey batteries. A tad expensive but worth every penny I think.

    This guy here: http://www.tecmate-int.com/accumatepro12v7a_detail.php
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
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  5. #35
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    Invitation to post on complex content

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger 04 RT View Post
    Lorne, Thanks for posting this detailed info. You've got a lot of good info on Megasquirt. So that it doesn't get lost, I think it makes a lot of sense to give it its own thread. Even if it is just to describe the process of implementation and observations. I would hate to see this good stuff get lost amidst this battery and starting stuff. RB
    Thanks for the invite Roger.
    I enjoy reading your posts, & obviously there is a lot of really good material/ people on these forums to assist anyone looking to know more about their ride. I actually have a few topics I had previously thought of opening for general consideration or comment (as a newby to the club but well seasoned tech), but then pulled back as controversey/ angst seemed to bloom.
    Kurt (Admin) on the airhead forum assured me all was well and normal - so barring an all out riot I suspect a couple of interesting sectors can be given a go.
    Regards, Lorne.

  6. #36
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    Odyssey Charge Rates

    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    Do an equalize charge on the Odyssey of 14.9v - 15v for at least 8-10 hours.
    Then test again. You will be surprised.
    I am betting that your "new" battery is not fully charged.
    The Motronic does not operate well below 9.5v
    The problem with AGM's is they want (and need) a higher charge voltage than 14.0v which is what Oilhead alternators typically put out.
    I have seen this problem on a few bikes now.
    My solution on my own machine is I modified the voltage regulator to charge @ 14.7v years ago and never had any further issues.
    I love Odyssey batteries and recommend them. The catch is they must be periodically equalized (with a 5-10A charger) to maintain peak capacity in our application.
    This was all confirmed by one of the engineers at Odyssey when I had this problem myself. Their site has a lot of engineering data confirming the requirements.
    My machine (1150GS) always starts within 2 seconds.
    I have to admit not researching the AGM charge behaviour very diligently, and find the above numbers quite surprising. I'll further reveal ignorance on the subject with a question as to the tendancy of the closed case to vent or loose medium when charge rates go over a threshold? (as flooded cells are so vulnerable to).
    I had added a PC925 to my airhead a few years ago, and left the system charging it at the traditional 13.8v (albeit that system a refit that provides 900w and is flat line 13.8 throughout all rpm's). I did a cursary read on the Odyssey paperwork back then but either missed this or it didn't provide such detail.
    I'm interested to follow your final accessment Roger, on your battery, and course of action. Not having problems but wish to treat the Odyssey as it should be.
    I have a link on file for an external voltage regulator that can be "dialed" up/down to customs output levels, others may have seen that.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by R100RTurbo View Post
    I have to admit not researching the AGM charge behaviour very diligently, and find the above numbers quite surprising. I'll further reveal ignorance on the subject with a question as to the tendancy of the closed case to vent or loose medium when charge rates go over a threshold? (as flooded cells are so vulnerable to).
    I had added a PC925 to my airhead a few years ago, and left the system charging it at the traditional 13.8v (albeit that system a refit that provides 900w and is flat line 13.8 throughout all rpm's). I did a cursary read on the Odyssey paperwork back then but either missed this or it didn't provide such detail.
    I'm interested to follow your final accessment Roger, on your battery, and course of action. Not having problems but wish to treat the Odyssey as it should be.
    I have a link on file for an external voltage regulator that can be "dialed" up/down to customs output levels, others may have seen that.

    I agree, the more I read about the subject of the Odyssey Battery, the more I realize that I may be short changing the life of the battery with the Jr charger I am using. I asked the person at Odyssey when I bought the battery if the float charger I had would be sufficient and he at the time of purchase, assured me it would. Sufficient vs Optimal are 2 different things.

    What I do have are a couple of Jr tenders that I use on my lead acid battery(s) and recently a DieHard Gold Charger / Starter that I use for the cars. My previous Sears charger lasted about 32 yr, before I put it out to pasture. My new unit has a AGM setting and will 2 amp / 10 amp / 30amp charge or 3 sec start at a 80amp discharge. I would not use this to 30amp charge or to start a motorcycle battery with. Car or similar yes. I have put this charger on the PC680 on the 10amp and now on the 2amp setting. It will get bring the battery up to 14.68v or so. When it initial charges it will go to 15.2v but for only about 10 secs then it floats down to the 14.6v range.. But after several hours it shuts it self off and the battery settles down to 13.1v or so. Then I don't consider this a true float charger and don't think I will use this to maintain the PC680 long term. Course at the time I also did not do the needed indepth research and believed this charger would charge and a Jr would float the PC680 to a best level. It looks like I was wrong to believe that....

    So now I may have (or is that need, do I really have to have?) to purchase a charger that cost's near the price of the battery to support it...

    This is an interesting subject, My thanks to you gentlemen for the research and sharing it with us..
    Last edited by Dadrider; 10-10-2013 at 04:03 PM.

  8. #38
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    This Diehard charger has medium size clamps that isn't safe to leave unattended for days on end to keep the battery floated.

    With my work schedule, the bike sits for weeks if not a month at a time between rides right now. Should I float as part of a maintenance schedule and disconnect the battery between rides? That neg cable isn't the easiest thing to get to.

    I want to keep the battery near or at the top of it's game, but rather would not have to partially disassemble to hook a cable up, go on a day ride and then repeat to set it back up for 3 or 4 weeks.

    That is my small concern.

  9. #39
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Here is what I heard from odyssey on the subject of pc680 maintenance.

    Hello Roger,

    Thank you for contacting EnerSys/ODYSSEY.

    See attached manual reconditioning cycle for your reference. If your headlight will stay on, this would work fairly well for a way of discharging the battery.

    Proper charger maintenance is critical to maximize the life and performance of the ODYSSEY battery. ODYSSEY Battery 101?

    The usable energy of the ODYSSEY battery is from 11.2V (0% state of charge) OCV to 12.84V OCV (Open Circuit Voltage should be checked after a minimum of 6-8 hours rest period with no loads) or higher. When the battery goes below 10.0V OCV, you are getting into the chemical part of the battery and can cause permanent damage. At less than 8.0V the ODYSSEY limited warranty deems the battery over-discharged due to abuse or neglect. At less than 6V the battery can develop reversed cells depending on the condition of the battery. The ODYSSEY charger/maintainer can maintain the battery at a full state of charge indefinitely in or out of the application without harming the battery. If the battery becomes over-discharged (below 11.0V) then the sooner the battery can be fully charged the better and if the battery remains connected to the application during storage or extended periods of non-use. There is a link to a list of ODYSSEY approved 12V chargers located on the ODYSSEY website Product Support page for your reference. Any of the approved chargers can be used to maintain the battery indefinitely without harming the battery.

    The list of approved 12V chargers is provided due to the many chargers that are programmed for the vast majority of batteries on the market that prefer low amp charging and lower float voltages that do not fully charge or maintain the ODYSSEY battery properly. The recommended charging current for an ODYSSEY battery is 40% of the 10 hour amp hour rating of the battery for cyclic applications (about 6A for a single 16Ah rated PC680), a constant float voltage of 13.5-13.8V and no constant voltages exceeding 15.0V in any kind of automatic de-sulfation/reconditioning/equalize mode. At greater than 15.0V the battery can overcharge, overheat, and/or go into thermal runaway. Maintaining the battery at less than 13.5V will bring the battery down and maintain it in an undercharged condition causing sulfation and premature failure.

    For seasonal applications (non-daily use applications that set for more than 3 days in a row consistently) frequent use of an approved maintainer that meets the charge voltage requirements noted in the previous paragraph is highly recommended during the season. The preferred storage method is to fully charge the battery before storing and disconnect the battery from the application (shelf storage mode) Stored in or out of the application with no loads, the battery would not require charging for up to 2 years at 77?F or until it reaches 12.0V, whichever comes first. The self discharge rate increases significantly for temperatures above 25?C (77?F) and for every 10?C (18?F) temperature increase the storage time to recharge is decreased by half. Charge maintenance is critical to maximizing the life and performance of the battery. Freezing will not harm the battery and self discharge rates reduce significantly at colder temperatures.

    It is recommended that the ODYSSEY battery be charged if it is less than 12.65V when put into use per the ODYSSEY Owner?s Manual (link provided on website Literature page for your reference). Most standard alternators/stators are not meant to be deep discharge recovery chargers and can damage the alternator/stator as well as not fully charging the battery with limited use. The Cyclic Charge Voltage range printed on the top label of the battery is the recommended voltage at the battery from the applications charging system (alternator or stator). At less than 14.1V the battery may not be getting fully charged for infrequently used applications. You can verify the battery voltage by checking the voltage at the battery at least 8 hours after application use (or off charge) and if the battery voltage is not at least 12.84V then the battery is not considered fully charged. Voltage readings taken right off charge or after use (alternator/stator charging) will be inflated and inaccurate so for a true OCV reading, you should wait at least 8 hours before checking the voltage (OCV) with 24 hours being preferred.

    Any feedback is always welcome and appreciated. I hope this helps. Please contact me if you have any questions, concerns, or need further assistance.

    Sincerely,
    ODYSSEY Sales/Support Representative

  10. #40
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    Odyssey Charge Requirements

    Excellent, guess I'll be checking surface voltage when I get home tonight - bikes been sitting idle for about a week now.
    Thanks Roger

  11. #41
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    Odyssey Charge State

    I had 12.81v by Fluke on parked bike, but clock and connections had not been disconnected yet. So, I'm happy with my charge rate and will now see how my storage charger cooperates during off season.

  12. #42
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Still waiting for delivery of the charger. In the meantime ...

    Below is a chart from East Penn (many thanks to Terry), a manufacturer of Gel and AGM batteries. On the chart you can see the expected battery voltage when an AGM battery is loaded at the 1-3 hour discharge rate. That would mean that my fully charged PC680 (16 aH) when loaded at a 5-16 amps should still have a 12.5 to 12.6V output. It seems pretty clear to me that my battery is not fully charged since at key-on the voltage drops from 12.9 to 12.1V or so.

    With my key on I've got about a 4 amp load from the low beam and maybe a couple amps for everything else. That is within the 1-3 hour discharge range on the chart. I plan to measure my key on battery load.

    While I wait for the charger and some time, I've been looking at old GS-911 log files to find the initial cold-start injector pulse length. It used to be about 3.8 mS. Lately it has been in the 4.5 mS range, up to 5.5 mS. This is due to guess what? Low battery voltage. The Motronic is trying to compensate, it's just not adding enough time. I now feel that I have triangulated this pretty well. Everything points to low voltage at the injectors due to the battery (and perhaps the starter).

    It will still be a day or two before I begin reconditioning the battery.
    RB


  13. #43
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
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    The injectors are grounded through the ECM

    The injectors see system voltage all the time and are fired when the ground circuit is completed through the ECM. Before I was so sure about voltage as the cause, I don't discount it, but a good meter on the injectors and at a high load circuit to confirm the voltage would convince me.

    Ground resistance in general or resistance through the switching{(power?) I can't remember the correct term for the big transistors} transistors will reduce current to the injectors.

    I couldn't make a decision about battery discharge or the right charging method based on the information seen here to date.
    1997 R1100RT (Restored Basket Case) , 1981 KZ 440 LTD (Restored Basket Case)
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  14. #44
    Lucky motorradmike's Avatar
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    Very thorough as always Roger.

    Although I tend to treat batteries like crap and expect them to last forever, you guys have got my attention.
    My PC-680 is at 12.48V unloaded, and quickly drops to 11.6V when I turn on the key so even though the bike starts easily, I'm missing some capacity.
    I'm going to go through the recovery process as outlined by GSAddict.
    I'd also like to modify the voltage regulator.

    I have a couple of questions for GSAddict:
    - Odyssey recommends a limit of 15V yet you specify 17.5V, current limited to 950mA. Are you suggesting the battery is already damaged so this higher voltage is warranted but may make it worse?
    - Your post #14 includes a link to info regarding the bike voltage regulator but I can't get in without a password. Am I missing something?
    Mike Marr
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  15. #45
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorradmike View Post
    Very thorough as always Roger.

    Although I tend to treat batteries like crap and expect them to last forever, you guys have got my attention.
    My PC-680 is at 12.48V unloaded, and quickly drops to 11.6V when I turn on the key so even though the bike starts easily, I'm missing some capacity.
    I'm going to go through the recovery process as outlined by GSAddict.
    I'd also like to modify the voltage regulator.

    I have a couple of questions for GSAddict:
    - Odyssey recommends a limit of 15V yet you specify 17.5V, current limited to 950mA. Are you suggesting the battery is already damaged so this higher voltage is warranted but may make it worse?
    - Your post #14 includes a link to info regarding the bike voltage regulator but I can't get in without a password. Am I missing something?
    When doing the "recovery" charge, voltage can go as high as that because of the current limiting of 950ma. At that current thermal runaway is not possible. This voltage is required to remove sulfation from the electrodes.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

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