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Thread: Starter or Battery 2004 R1150RT

  1. #16
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
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    I always seem to sound like a smartass, but if it were me,

    Anytime I have ever had a complaint of a slow starting situation, you do a current draw on a fully charged battery, if good, do a current draw while cranking and if in doubt, voltage drop between battery and starter.

    In 35 years of being a paid wrench, I have had bad batteries, bad starters, bad cables and a few times, really bad engine bearings. I once had an apprentice go to put his third starter on an engine when I stopped him and asked him if he did those tests. He said he did but didn't know what the data meant. Good batteries, excessive current draw twice, no voltage drop, engine was seized.

    It took me longer to use "spell correction" and write this post than it does to do those tests.

    Yes, I know, I sound like a smart ass know-it-all again. Sorry.................
    1997 R1100RT (Restored Basket Case) , 1981 KZ 440 LTD (Restored Basket Case)
    1986 K75S(the beutch), 1993 K1100RS (blown engine), 1997 Chev Short Box (4x4 with an LT1)
    "You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    My solution on my own machine is I modified the voltage regulator to charge @ 14.7v years ago and never had any further issues.
    How To?

  3. #18
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
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    There was a post here by Roger04rt an hour ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott.lambert View Post
    How To?
    Where did that post go?

    The answer would have been great. To the best of my knowledge, integral voltage regulators are totally electronic and they are what they are.

    I had hoped to learn something new. (is that "hoped" as in hope or "hopped" as in "pay attention my little bunny friend"?)

    With integral voltage regulators in my career, the best you could do was full field the alternator to see the maximum voltage. Other than the smell of your fingers and alternator burning, it was the only way I ever learned to determine whether it was the alternator or the regulator at fault for poor voltage and amperage.

    Could we get that answer back please?
    1997 R1100RT (Restored Basket Case) , 1981 KZ 440 LTD (Restored Basket Case)
    1986 K75S(the beutch), 1993 K1100RS (blown engine), 1997 Chev Short Box (4x4 with an LT1)
    "You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."

  4. #19
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselyoda View Post
    ...
    In 35 years of being a paid wrench, I have had bad batteries, bad starters, bad cables and a few times, really bad engine bearings. I once had an apprentice go to put his third starter on an engine when I stopped him and asked him if he did those tests. He said he did but didn't know what the data meant. Good batteries, excessive current draw twice, no voltage drop, engine was seized.

    It took me longer to use "spell correction" and write this post than it does to do those tests.

    ...
    So, with 35 years of instinct under your belt, since I have none of the tools you mentioned, is it starter or battery causing the voltage dip? And since the symptoms are the headlights are bright and the starter spins quickly, which system is being affected by the starter or alternator causing the lean, first 29 seconds, on the first start of the day?

    When you have 35 years of spell check under your belt these posts will take much less time than your tests. Stay with it man!

    BTW, 45 years ago my two jobs were: morning/night, dairy-barn gutter-shoveler, and: day-job, greasy handed auto mechanic. The two smells were a lot to bring home at night. Because of the dairy-barn job I don't like to get a lot of what I was shoveling then, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by dieselyoda View Post
    Where did that post go? ...

    Could we get that answer back please?
    The link I referenced is locked. Here is another thread I found using GOOGLE search by a guy whose handle is mouthfullofflake: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=22
    Last edited by Roger 04 RT; 10-08-2013 at 12:09 PM.

  5. #20
    Lucky motorradmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger 04 RT View Post

    Test #1
    Standalone bike, 5.37V drop.

    *12.19 V, 0 rpm
    12.11, 0
    12.11, 0
    *6.82, 0
    10.24, 350 rpm
    10.89, 350
    10.73, 200 rpm
    11.05, 1400
    13.73, 1500

    Test #2
    Jumped from the running car, ground to the bike's battery and +12V to the starter lug
    3.99V drop.

    *13.98 V, 0 rpm
    *9.99, 0
    11.46, 300
    11.95, 1350
    13.9, 1400
    14.06, 1450


    Starter or battery, which do you think?
    RB
    Test #2 eliminates voltage drop in the connections and cable from bike Battery(+) to the starter.
    As well, it adds a huge secondary current source, yet we still see a 3.99V drop.

    For that reason, I say the starter is drawing too much current.

    PS: I love the way you go about collecting data.
    Mike Marr
    1978 Yamaha XS750 (Needs rings), 1996 BMW R1100RS, 2004 Honda CRF230F

  6. #21
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorradmike View Post
    Test #2 eliminates voltage drop in the connections and cable from bike Battery(+) to the starter.
    As well, it adds a huge secondary current source, yet we still see a 3.99V drop.

    For that reason, I say the starter is drawing too much current.

    PS: I love the way you go about collecting data.
    I'm on track with you except that I know I've been undercharging the battery for a year and a half according to the info from GSAddict. So I'm going to get a proper charger later this week, cycle the battery according to the Odyssey specs and see how it does. Since I've already serviced the starter twice, once with the planetary gear cover arcing on the armature, I will likely get a new starter anyway. But I've remained curious about why the voltage dip leads to the slow, lean start.

    I ran another test this morning to see if I could out why the dip causes the problem: lights bright, starter turning over quickly but slow-start and lean afterstart condition. Yesterday I separately powered the the Motronic with no improvement.

    This morning I separately powered the injectors and fuel pump from a second source (not hard, just pull the relay and plug in a jumper which I recommend carrying in case you lose a relay). BINGO! With only the fuel pump and injectors powered from a second source, the bike started right up. So low injector voltage is the issue with low-battery, hard-starting.

    I should have known this because last year when I noticed my alternator taking time to come on-line after starting (about a minute) I also noticed that the mixture got much richer when the battery voltage stepped up due to the alternator starting to charge. This is easy to see with an LC-1 because it's always measuring the exhaust, and the Motronic is always in Open Loop until the engine is warm so the O2 sensor doesn't adapt to the low voltage.

    So my theory is this: the voltage dip is coming at a time, on first cold start, that the Motronic usually adds a lot of fuel, perhaps for as little as the first few revolutions. At that time, the voltage dip keeps the injectors from squirting enough fuel to adequately wet the TP and injection track. From then on, it is behind the eight-ball and playing catch-up with the fueling.

    The Motronic does compensate for low battery voltage but this is now the second time that I've seen its compensation to be inadequate.

    Still TBD, battery or starter ...


    Added:
    Here's how the mixture varied when the alternator came on-line slowly. This isn't real bad but it is measureable. The start plot is much worse. The step down in AFR is the alternator coming on-line at 3 minutes 20 seconds.


  7. #22
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    You've nailed it again

    Sorry Roger, I'm noting you have diligently tracked down the actual "cause - effect" again and the culprit is still sitting there sort of doing its thing.
    The obvious next step (apart from normal and accepted maintenance routines) would be to adjust that voltage correction table.
    M.S. beckons.

  8. #23
    just hangin' out 2bikemike's Avatar
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    Following this thread makes my head spin. And unlike Roger's starter, it ain't slow!!
    keep it light enough to travel.....
    2013 GL1800 Goldwing
    '81 Honda CB650 Custom

  9. #24
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    Clarification

    My post to Roger is totally an inside thing - not entirely clear to others most likely. M.S. is a tunable controller product.
    I concur with Rogers findings on the reason for the "lazy" first of the morning start routine on his bike. There are numerous fueling strategies common to fuel injection (prime pulse/ cranking pulse width/ enrichment versus time factor/ and warm up versus temp tables/ perhaps etc.) and I have noted the exact same symptom on my project - early on.
    The thing of it is, the Motronic controller does not avail itself to change low voltage fuel PW correction which would address the issue (although a new starter or more fully charged battery is also reasonable to consider doing). I'm not questioning or condemning it, she just can't be programmed.

    I was compelled to respond to your excellent post Roger, and findings as you systematically narrowed things down till the culprit reared its head.
    Being on the other side of the fence so to speak, where the banquet is in full progress (M.S. is rather broad like a buffet of all kinds of tuning treats) I'm offering bread crumbs I guess.

  10. #25
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger 04 RT View Post


    So my theory is this: the voltage dip is coming at a time, on first cold start, that the Motronic usually adds a lot of fuel, perhaps for as little as the first few revolutions.
    Interesting, that makes sense.
    I remember not lifting the fast idle lever a while ago and tried to start. The bike sputtered and I tried to catch it with the throttle but too late.
    When I cranked again the bike did not catch right away and when it did it acted just like it was overchoked. I could smell the fuel.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  11. #26
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
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    Grounds, grounds, grounds and then more grounds.

    Every time I see something like this and getting more and more complicated bringing more questions than answers, I always go back to the very beginning and ask, "did you take the ground straps off and clean them?"

    I have had experiences with crazy problems that got even crazier with time. Right from the introduction of electronic vehicle controls, every seminar was the same, go after the grounds first, even when they look good.

    Once upon a time, I had a Detroit that the operator complained would power out. Check the engine for codes, tons of codes and none made sense. At the end of the day, one ground strap to the ECM had 2/10ths of voltage drop. I never would have imagined it could throw the ECM into fits, but it did.
    1997 R1100RT (Restored Basket Case) , 1981 KZ 440 LTD (Restored Basket Case)
    1986 K75S(the beutch), 1993 K1100RS (blown engine), 1997 Chev Short Box (4x4 with an LT1)
    "You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."

  12. #27
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R100RTurbo View Post
    Sorry Roger, I'm noting you have diligently tracked down the actual "cause - effect" again and the culprit is still sitting there sort of doing its thing.
    The obvious next step (apart from normal and accepted maintenance routines) would be to adjust that voltage correction table.
    M.S. beckons.
    Steve Mullen at Nightrider.com the designer and manufacturer of the AF-XIED has spent many years improving the fuel injection of HDs. He implement a Megasquirt, here are some of the details: http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/efi_project_00.htm.

    I asked him how long he thought it might take on an R1150, he thought a few to several months, faster if you could use the dyno for timing developement.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2bikemike View Post
    Following this thread makes my head spin. And unlike Roger's starter, it ain't slow!!
    This was a thorny problem. I could have started throwing parts at it but that's not my M.O. It seems like there might be some mods that would make the R1150/1100 more reliable at starting. I could have lived with mine forever, I was just bothered about the, why? of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by R100RTurbo View Post
    My post to Roger is totally an inside thing - not entirely clear to others most likely. M.S. is a tunable controller product.
    I concur with Rogers findings on the reason for the "lazy" first of the morning start routine on his bike. There are numerous fueling strategies common to fuel injection (prime pulse/ cranking pulse width/ enrichment versus time factor/ and warm up versus temp tables/ perhaps etc.) and I have noted the exact same symptom on my project - early on.
    The thing of it is, the Motronic controller does not avail itself to change low voltage fuel PW correction which would address the issue (although a new starter or more fully charged battery is also reasonable to consider doing). I'm not questioning or condemning it, she just can't be programmed.

    I was compelled to respond to your excellent post Roger, and findings as you systematically narrowed things down till the culprit reared its head.
    Being on the other side of the fence so to speak, where the banquet is in full progress (M.S. is rather broad like a buffet of all kinds of tuning treats) I'm offering bread crumbs I guess.
    I think we will all be interested to hear how your Megasquirt (or Microsquirt) project progresses. It sounds like a lot of fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    Interesting, that makes sense.
    I remember not lifting the fast idle lever a while ago and tried to start. The bike sputtered and I tried to catch it with the throttle but too late.
    When I cranked again the bike did not catch right away and when it did it acted just like it was overchoked. I could smell the fuel.
    I left out some of the detail from this morning's test. My car battery voltage sits around 12.4V with the engine off. That is the voltage I used to power the fuel pump and injectors. The Motronic, as I started cranking was about 12.2V. The Motronic determines its fuel injector pulse width based on the voltage it sees (12.2V before start and about 13.3V after it started running.

    So to recap, the Motronic had a good estimate of the fuel injector voltage when the bike started by a couple seconds later the FI voltage was about 1 Volt lower than the voltage powering the Motronic. The result, the bike started quickly, and then ran lean. This is an excellent indication of just how voltage sensitive the injectors are, and how inadequate the Motronic Dead-Time vs Battery Voltage is.

    Tomorrow I will power the FI and Motronic from my car battery, with the engine running. The voltage will then be about 13.3V on both systems.

    I'm starting to think about long-term solutions to the FI voltage problem. (Including getting my batter charged properly.)

    RB

  13. #28
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    conventional lead acid battery

    Interesting thread. I prefer conventional lead acid liquid cell batteries to the sealed glass mat maintenance free units even though there is more chance for leakage especially in a tip-over event. Any reason why a Yuasa 51913 battery won't work/fit a '04 R1150 RT? The 51913 dimensions are: 8.5"X7.2"X3.8". I know this battery will fit my '94 R1100RSL.

    Also, there would be no charger issues associated with a conventional lead acid liquid cell battery.
    Jammess

  14. #29
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Roger 04 RT;901917]Steve Mullen at Nightrider.com the designer and manufacturer of the AF-XIED has spent many years improving the fuel injection of HDs. He implement a Megasquirt, here are some of the details: http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/efi_project_00.htm.

    I asked him how long he thought it might take on an R1150, he thought a few to several months, faster if you could use the dyno for timing developement.



    This was a thorny problem. I could have started throwing parts at it but that's not my M.O. It seems like there might be some mods that would make the R1150/1100 more reliable at starting. I could have lived with mine forever, I was just bothered about the, why? of it.



    I think we will all be interested to hear how your Megasquirt (or Microsquirt) project progresses. It sounds like a lot of fun.



    Yes, thanks on that Roger. For those not on the same page, not to hijack thread, and briefly - I have an 83 airhead that is fuel injected with a MicroSquirt ECU for fuel and ignition control (as well a turbocharger that brought on some pretty "polarized" interest when last mentioned on the MOA forums). Daily driver, been to many rallies including this year in Salem, and reliable to the point I pull it down to change things frequently just for the fun of it.
    Relative to this phenomenon you have identified, I would offer that it is quite reliably an actual short coming and does not relate to bad grounds (I do however endorse bad grounds as being a leading simple issue oft times ignored in favour of more complex and expensive repairs).
    To respond to your observation of the challenge in programming an alternate ecu to an oilheads requirements, particularly the ignition mapping, I'd like to offer the following road map I'd be inclined to follow:
    a) Piggy back a gen 2 or 3 MicroSquirt with the stock oilhead system and components in place.
    b) Add certain sensors to allow a seamless co-existence of the second controller, such as MAP/ CLT/ O2/ TPS. The 2nd TPS might be plumbed via mechanical similar to the split throttle cable units well used and proven on BMW's. Key would be picking up the stock ecu ignition trigger signal(s), and on this chapter I can attest to many numerous ways being available to "skin the cat" as they say.
    c) Tuner Studio logging via a lap top on bike. This is where it gets controversial, I've utilized one on my tuning efforts mounted to a light aluminum bracket system atop my fuel tank - one needs to avoid distraction while in motion.
    d) The MS controller would be going along for the ride and logging would allow capture of the stock Motronic treatment of ignition timing versus rpm's, load and throttle states to cheat that portion of the MS tuning required.
    e) An ignition map is agreeably one of the harder files to gain on your own and without some proper dyno time. All the other numerous files (VE & AFR tables/ enrichments/ corrections/ etc. etc.) are much easier to tip toe through and gain results. The Motronic Ignition Table would arguably be a "good starting point" to resume bike operation and improve from there. There is always room for improvement.
    f) Logs taken under all conditions, and including cold starts, warm ups, modest cruise, transitions, heavy acel, you get the idea would provide the back drop to cheat a really good starting "MSQ" for the MicroSquirt controller to be commissioned and take over as main controller.
    There's lots of hype and mystique/ concern/ fear about MegaSquirt Tuning and challenge, but in the end it is all about diligence, scientific approach, and accuracy. Lots of people out there to substantiate results, including drag strips and the Salt Flats for serious power and efficiency gains.
    Cheers, Lorne.

  15. #30
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Lorne, Thanks for posting this detailed info. You've got a lot of good info on Megasquirt. So that it doesn't get lost, I think it makes a lot of sense to give it its own thread. Even if it is just to describe the process of implementation and observations. I would hate to see this good stuff get lost amidst this battery and starting stuff. RB

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