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Thread: 2000 R1100RT; Input splines AGAIN!! Done with this bike

  1. #1
    aka Papa Yams jyambrovich's Avatar
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    Angry 2000 R1100RT; Input splines AGAIN!! Done with this bike

    I have a 2000 R1100RT that I've owned since June of 2006. In November 2009, the input shaft splines on the transmission stripped out. I went ahead and had the $3000 job done by a VERY WELL KNOWN AND REPUTABLE INDEPENDENT shop. Mileage when I got the bike back in December 2009 was ~59,600.

    Fast forward to Thursday (4th of July, 2013). Bike has 88K miles and I am trying to sell it. (Variety of reasons but I'm selling it). I am going to ride the bike to a spot about 1.5 miles from our home to display it with a for sale sign. Three blocks from the house, I take off from a stoplight. 1st gear, start to accelerate and ZZZZZZZ!! Loud racket, immediately lose power to rear wheel. I think to myself, "There is NO WAY that this could happen to me / this bike again, IS THERE????"

    Went to the repair shop today (about 4 miles from our home) and had one of the service writers come back to the house with me. Checked it out and confirmed my fear - INPUT SPLINES ARE STRIPPED AGAIN!! 3.5 years later, not even 30,000 miles. DAMN!!

    I am certainly glad for one thing - I'm glad that this didn't happen to someone a short time after I'd sold them the bike. They would have figured me to have known there was a problem and was just a crook trying to unload the problem on someone else. That is NOT the person I am. I would have returned the money.

    So, any suggestions from the gathered brain trust? I am not going to spend another $3000-ish to turn around and sell the bike for $4500-5000.
    JAY
    2000 R1100RT, Opal Blue 87,000 miles
    57,000 BMW miles in 6 years

  2. #2
    IBA #44567 Ken F's Avatar
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    If you have the time to mess with it, you could part it out on Ebay, and the MOA.
    It will probably be a rather slow process doing it that way.

    Another thought might be looking on Ebay for another used transmission.
    I'm sure you can buy one for WAY less than the $3000
    I've seen them for 2-250 for an R1100

    ken
    IBA #44567
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
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  3. #3
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
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    If you are interested in getting rid of it as is, perhaps there is a deal to be made? Get it out of the USA? I'm always looking for a project and I have lots of time and patience for something like this. It seems all I do lately is save good bikes.......
    1997 R1100RT (Restored Basket Case) , 1981 KZ 440 LTD (Restored Basket Case)
    1986 K75S(the beutch), 1993 K1100RS (blown engine), 1997 Chev Short Box (4x4 with an LT1)
    "You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."

  4. #4
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
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    What exactly was replaced the first time?
    Anton Largiader 72724
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  5. #5
    aka Papa Yams jyambrovich's Avatar
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    Next step??

    Ken F. - I think that I may end up parting it out. A fair assortment of new or lightly used stuff including Wilbers shocks, a rebuilt ABS pump (with more than 4 years left on transferable warranty), good rims and tires, new Spiegler brake lines, new starter, tires with around 2K miles, BMW hard cases (top case, 2 side cases with CityLids and one right side one with a TouringLid) ... The main issue is that the bike needs to be SO TAKEN APART to replace the transmission that it's more than I am willing to attempt myself.

    Dieselyoda - I would love to just be able to ship it off but I don't think that I can get the kind of $$ for it that I can if I sell it as parts.

    Anton - If you are curious, I can send you a scanned copy of the Repair Order by email. For some reason I couldn't copy and paste into this message and I don't really want to post the whole thing for the rest of the world to see. In essence they replaced the entire clutch assembly, the input shaft, new bearings and seals, etc. I believe that they did a good job and I'm not complaining about the work that was done.
    JAY
    2000 R1100RT, Opal Blue 87,000 miles
    57,000 BMW miles in 6 years

  6. #6
    IBA #44567 Ken F's Avatar
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    Jay,
    Not trying to talk you into doing it yourself, but in all honesty, It's not all that hard to do. I just did a rebuild on my R11RS transmission and was very surprised by how straightforward it was.
    Typical Teutonic logic! These were built to be worked on.

    I will admit I was a little intimidated before beginning (with the same feelings you expressed), but once you get into it you will have an Ah-hah moment
    (about the time you get all the tupperware off) and see that it's not that big of a deal. After disconnecting a few wires & the brake line you remove 4 of the 6 bolts
    that hold the rear subframe in place, and pivot it upwards. There is your transmission in full view.

    There are some great threads on here and elsewhere about removing the transmission and replacing the clutch if you want to familiarize yourself.

    If I could be of long-distance support, feel free to message me.

    Ken
    IBA #44567
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
    -Albert Eienstein

  7. #7
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyambrovich View Post
    Anton - If you are curious, I can send you a scanned copy of the Repair Order by email. For some reason I couldn't copy and paste into this message and I don't really want to post the whole thing for the rest of the world to see. In essence they replaced the entire clutch assembly, the input shaft, new bearings and seals, etc. I believe that they did a good job and I'm not complaining about the work that was done.
    If they replaced the clutch housing along with the rest of the clutch, then there's really not much more that can be done. I always replace the housing but I don't know that there's any kind of guarantee as far as making sure the problem never comes back. Still, it's very rare on an 1100 and for it to happen again after everything is replaced is really strange.

    I think there is some rider habit stuff involved. Paul Mihalka had spline failures on all kinds of bikes and he was a big advocate of engine braking. Sure, he rode over a million miles but when you look at the number of bikes on which he did those miles, and then look at the spline failures, its very odd. Airhead, K-bike, R1100 (I think), R1150 (times two?) R1200 (times two?). If a failure every 100k miles were typical for BMWs, the numbers we see would be very different.
    Anton Largiader 72724
    largiader.com bmwra.org

  8. #8
    Just me rad's Avatar
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    I have strongly felt that if you have a BMW that suffers a premature spline failure, it will happen again and again. There is an alignment issue that simply replacing parts won't address. I found this out on a 99 r1100s that ate its first set of splines at 15K and did so with clockwork precision every 15k there after..

    I traded it back to the dealer at 30k, after the second failure. They gave me a great deal on a new GS. The new owner of the S had a failure at about 45k.

    As luck would have it I had two rear drive failures on the GS, one 2,000 miles from home. I left the BMW fold for 5 years at that point.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rad View Post
    I have strongly felt that if you have a BMW that suffers a premature spline failure, it will happen again and again. There is an alignment issue that simply replacing parts won't address. I found this out on a 99 r1100s that ate its first set of splines at 15K and did so with clockwork precision every 15k there after..

    I traded it back to the dealer at 30k, after the second failure. They gave me a great deal on a new GS. The new owner of the S had a failure at about 45k.

    As luck would have it I had two rear drive failures on the GS, one 2,000 miles from home. I left the BMW fold for 5 years at that point.
    I've been following the spline failure sagas for several years, both here and on Pelican site.
    I am fully convinced that there are 3 primary causations for clutch/spline failure.
    1)- user error. usually just shows up as toasted clutches, splines survive. solution is learn to ride a dry clutch BMW, as it's not a wet clutch bike.
    2) lack of sufficient or appropriate lubrication. those are the failures that show up around 60-80K as the first failure. If regularly lubed, (every 40K), this issue should be resolved.
    3) incorrect engine/trans alignment. this is the one leads to multiple failures, often starting as early as 20K, and repeating itself over and over, until misalignment is corrected. Rad, that is exactly what you experienced. the only way to correctly repair that issue is to measure cases, install new dowel pins, and correct the alignment. It's not off by much, so needs to be mic'd out accurately.
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  10. #10
    Just me rad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    3) incorrect engine/trans alignment. this is the one leads to multiple failures, often starting as early as 20K, and repeating itself over and over, until misalignment is corrected. Rad, that is exactly what you experienced. the only way to correctly repair that issue is to measure cases, install new dowel pins, and correct the alignment. It's not off by much, so needs to be mic'd out accurately.
    Yup, could very well be. Back in 99/2000, everybody thought the few of us that first experienced this issue were causing it ourselves. My 99 S was the 9th one produced!

  11. #11
    GEEZER lsouth3's Avatar
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    question

    Is this misalignment present in only 99/2000 oilhead 1100s?
    Lee - The older I get the better I was
    1994 R1100RSL, Black. 1994 R1100RSL, Silver Pearl and a "new" 2001 R1100RS, Red!
    Treat all others with politeness. Not because they are nice but because you are.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsouth3 View Post
    Is this misalignment present in only 99/2000 oilhead 1100s?
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  13. #13
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    Input splines...

    It happened on my 2001 R1100RT at 54,829 as well and on an identical bike owned by another member of the San Diego BMW club, although I don't know the mileage.

    I've ridden mine a bit under 40K since then. I hope I'm not headed for problems, I'm planning a 2600 mile trip in two weeks...
    '74 Honda CB360, '77 Yamaha RD400, '83 Yamaha 650 Seca Turbo, '02 BMW K1200RS,
    '01 BMW R1100RT
    IBA #55862

  14. #14
    Registered User GKman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    I've been following the spline failure sagas for several years, both here and on Pelican site.
    I am fully convinced that there are 3 primary causations for clutch/spline failure.
    1)- user error. usually just shows up as toasted clutches, splines survive. solution is learn to ride a dry clutch BMW, as it's not a wet clutch bike.
    2) lack of sufficient or appropriate lubrication. those are the failures that show up around 60-80K as the first failure. If regularly lubed, (every 40K), this issue should be resolved.
    3) incorrect engine/trans alignment. this is the one leads to multiple failures, often starting as early as 20K, and repeating itself over and over, until misalignment is corrected. Rad, that is exactly what you experienced. the only way to correctly repair that issue is to measure cases, install new dowel pins, and correct the alignment. It's not off by much, so needs to be mic'd out accurately.
    How does one follow user error on a web site. Do riders post "I don't know how to use the clutch and my clutch disk burned up for some reason"?

    You omitted the fact that the transmission input shaft is too short to fully engage in the clutch hub.

    A user posted recently that the splines stripped out of the clutch hub. I wouldn't rule out defects in workmanship and material.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GKman View Post
    How does one follow user error on a web site. Do riders post "I don't know how to use the clutch and my clutch disk burned up for some reason"?

    You omitted the fact that the transmission input shaft is too short to fully engage in the clutch hub.

    A user posted recently that the splines stripped out of the clutch hub. I wouldn't rule out defects in workmanship and material.
    user error is tough to track, you're right. will not discount it for cause of clutch failure, especially absenting other damage. as an example- a friend of mine went thru 3 clutches on his K12RS in 40K miles. this was his first BMW, all previous were big 4. never stripped hub or shaft splines, just clutch faces. user error, imho.

    yes, input shaft/clutch engagement area is short, but many accumulate mucho miles- and if properly lubed, have no failures. It would be better with longer interface, but that is not in and of itself the causation.

    when input shaft splines strip, they pretty much take the clutch hub splines with them. and vice versa. a single incidence of stripped hub splines is not a pandemic worthy of concern. again, when many riders accumulate BIG miles on these, and the only thing they do differently is lube the splines about every ~40K miles, that tells me that lubrication is a concern.
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

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