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Thread: Non Warranty - warranty?

  1. #1
    BinkleyLane binkleylane's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Non Warranty - warranty?

    I am at the end of my rope with BMW dealers and BMW NA. Here is my sad story and I would appreciate all input, good or bad right or wrong. I really want to understand just what BMW thinks is or is not a warranty issue.
    Here is the story.
    I own a 2012 R 1200 RT. Love the bike. No issues at all up till now.
    At 6200 miles I had the dealer do the 6k service in preparation for the trip to Salem. I had a third party install new PR3's. Drove out to Salem - had a great time. All is good. On the way back somewhere in Wyoming the speedo starts to jump around and quits. The brake warring light comes on, the cruise control quits and of course the ABS is out. Well. we all know that there is something going on with a wheel sensor. At the end of the day I give a look see and find that the front sensor wire in riding on the rotor, worn thru one wire but not severed completely. Easy Peasy.......splice the wire and bingo the speedo is back but the brake warning, cruise and ABS are still kaput. No big worry I will get it fixed when I get home, at my local dealer, that good ole guy that I like so much. " just remember Bob, any problems at all just bring her in and we will take care of it".
    So, after getting home I schedule a appointment and take "ole blue" up to my friendly dealer and tell him what is going on. Well, OK we understand you were in the middle of a desert and that you were 400 miles from the nearest dealer but you really should have called the roadside hotline and had someone come and pick it up. We can not really be expected to be responsible for some thing that "you" fixed. After all the part was modified. Besides, the failure was most likely due to something that the tire installer did. Oh and by the way, you have water in the final drive and that's not going to be covered either. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ME: Ok Mr. dealer. Explain this. If the sensors failed due to the " third party " tire installer then why did it take 5500 miles for them to fail?

    Dealer: Do not know, do not care. If we had changed the tires we would have warrantied the problem.

    ME: But the warranty does not state that you are the only people that can do anything to the bike, like change tires.

    Dealer: Yes, we know that.

    ME: So what I am hearing you say is this. Because I chose to drive the bike home and not call out the tow trucks and have you guys put me in a hotel while you fix the bike and wait for parts and I end up a week late getting home, I am stuck for the parts and repair.

    Dealer: Yep

    ME: What about the final drive?

    Dealer: We feel the problem was caused by the "third party".

    ME: Really and how can you come to that conclusion?

    Dealer: Because of the other problem. They most likely occurred at the same time so we do not have any responsibility for the failure.

    ---------

    Cut to the present.
    What just happened here? My head is still spinning and I think I am trapped in some weird version of Catch 22.
    But it gets better.

    -----------

    Phone dialing - - - - - 1-800-831-1117

    BMW NA customer service, how may I help you.

    Hi, I own a BMW R1200 RT that is under warranty and I have a question. Went thru the entire scenario with this nice young man and ask - " So what do you think"

    BMW NA: Well Bob, I have to agree with the dealer. You should have called roadside assistance and had the bike towed. That what it is there for!!!!!

    Me: But I was 400 miles from a dealer and that was the wrong way. You are telling me that BMW will deny all claims because I made the decision to not cost you guys a whole bunch more money in having to come tow my bike.

    BMW NA: Yep, that's the way the system works.

    ME : This is your warranty policy? This is how you back up your product? This is the way that BMW honors its customers. ( at this point my BP is topped out and my eyes are bright pink - my wife is searching for the scotch and whatever downers she can find in the medicine chest. ) And let me guess, the final drive falls under the same program.

    BMW NA: Yep. Most likely the issue occurred when the tires were changed. We can not be responsible for what other dealers do to your bike. You should go talk to them.

    ME: Interesting. So let me make sure I am clear on this. You will not honor any warranty claims for these problems due to the fact that some other service entity replaced the tires on my bike. That having the tires replaced by someone other than a BMW dealer is the cause of these issues and BMW will deny this as a warranty claim.

    BMW NA: Yes and you really should not have spliced the wires. We cannot be responsible for repairs that you preformed on the road. You really should have called the roadside hotline, after all that's what its there for.

    Oh, I almost forgot, and yes he really did say this:

    BMW NA: And Bob, Have a nice weekend, thanks for calling.



    I do swear and attest that the above is true in fact and content. I may have omitted a few @#*&^@% words that were mumbled under my breath. I do want to make it clear though that I did not make it up. I do not think I could make it up.
    I have owned business's all my life. From Mom Pop retail street operations to manufactures reps doing multi mill per year in sales. I have never heard of nor could I imagine a scenario that could have followed a script like this, anywhere.

    So that's the story and unfortunately I am stuck with it. It is true and as I type this the bike is sitting at the dealership awaiting my authorization to proceed with the repairs, at my expense.

    Any input would be greatly appreciated. Any legal representation would be Greatly appreciated. Any offers to join a class action would be quickly responded to in the affirmative.
    And sadly, any offers to buy my 2012 RT, slightly broken will be entertained.

    My conscience will not allow me to do business with a unethical, uncaring company that is hostile to its customers, lies about their obligations and refuses to consider anything but their own opinion as correct. In any relationship there has to be a trust factor. I have lost all confidence in trust with regard to BMW dealing with any situation that requires fair treatment and honor. They are in fact dishonoring me and every other customer that choses to do business with them by distorting circumstances that we have no control over. From my experience today I can only assume that their policy is not pro customer/owner but rather the opposite. They will point the finger in any direction that relieves them of any responsibility or financial liability.

    With that being said, I will not relent. I believe they are violating their terms in the warranty and I will pursue any and all actions to hold them to their warranty.

    My rant is over, but I would really like to hear from all of you. And anyone out there with similar issues please let me know. These guys are way out of bounds here and someone ( or a whole lot of someones ) need to ( as me wife says ) "Jerk a knot in their tail".



    Please excuse any typos or misspelling, I am just a bit less than prime at this time.

    And as I was looking at my tag line I thought I should amend it by adding: "Worst Customer Support"
    B-est M-otorcycle (in the) W-orld
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  2. #2
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    You cannot repair the cable by splicing as it's a coaxial cable...I had a similar thing happen on a trip and it had original tires on it. I called the closest dealer, which was Hansen's in Medford and Craig said to check the cable, which probably was the cause of the ABS error. That was it. He said to just tape up the cable and reroute it so that it wouldn't rub. Voila, everything worked. It probably occurred because of improper assembly by the dealer. That's fine enough, but I didn't get it fixed right away. I ended up moving out of state and had it fixed at GOAZ under warranty.

    SO, your best bet short of calling roadside was to do what I did.
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  3. #3
    Outlander Omega Man's Avatar
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    I, in general, hate to someone bumping heads on this type of thing. When I use parts, products, services (do the work myself) I like to refer to the back page that is in a number of my aftermarket catalogs.........The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
    I have suffered from self-rescue as I always try to get home under my own steam, it's tough trying to get reimbursed for a repair that you had to do. Reimbursement after the fact is usually only achieved when there is a national recall. Have a real talk to the dealer and try to figure out what is really going on. If there is a flat out denial there is usually a reason, even a reason you may or may not agree with.
    OM
    "Well they say.. time loves a hero but only time will tell.. If he's real, he's a legend from heaven If he ain't he was sent here from hell" Lowell George
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  4. #4
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Sorry. It does not seem to me that a wire rubbed through by a brake rotor following a tire change constitutes a defect in materials or workmanship in the manufacture of the vehicle. It sounds like a defect in the workmanship in reinstalling the wheel with a new tire.

    I don't think your field repair really has anything to do with it. The failure happened most likely because the wire was not properly clipped back where it belonged when the caliper with the wheel sensor was installed.

    If recourse is to be had I would think it would be from whomever installed the wheel.

    When something similar (bad axle tube, wheel wobble, ruined sensor) happened to us we just sucked it up and bought a new sensor, even though the root cause was a badly designed axle tube that reared its ugly head after the warranty had expired.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
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  5. #5
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Man View Post
    I, in general, hate to someone bumping heads on this type of thing. When I use parts, products, services (do the work myself) I like to refer to the back page that is in a number of my aftermarket catalogs.........The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
    I have suffered from self-rescue as I always try to get home under my own steam, it's tough trying to get reimbursed for a repair that you had to do. Reimbursement after the fact is usually only achieved when there is a national recall. Have a real talk to the dealer and try to figure out what is really going on. If there is a flat out denial there is usually a reason, even a reason you may or may not agree with.
    OM
    The dealer can make all the difference. May be he's pissed because the OP went to someone else for tires. Like or not, the dealer, in this case, was the initial gatekeeper and makes all the difference. I would bet that had the dealer replaced the tires, this stuff would have been covered.
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  6. #6
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    I've having trouble connecting the dots to the rear.

    I agree that the front end problems could be attributed to the front wheel removal and replacement.

    But the final drive issue???? Not buying that.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  7. #7
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sibud View Post
    I've having trouble connecting the dots to the rear.

    I agree that the front end problems could be attributed to the front wheel removal and replacement.

    But the final drive issue???? Not buying that.
    Who knows. I read on the K1600 Forum where BMW denied a warranty claim on a K1600 because of low miles. The fuel pump went and the bike had 2000 miles on it. May be they have to have a certain deny to approve ratio and may be the dealer stuck it to him and the denial started there. Who knows. We've been through the warranty nightmare on this forum that went nowhere. Too much Kool-Aid. The OP has may be three choices. Fight it and hope he gets a better solution, pay for the repairs or one of the previous two and get rid of the bike. At best this situation is educational. Good luck.
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  8. #8
    Outlander Omega Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    The dealer can make all the difference. May be he's pissed because the OP went to someone else for tires. Like or not, the dealer, in this case, was the initial gatekeeper and makes all the difference. I would bet that had the dealer replaced the tires, this stuff would have been covered.
    I try to ease into a discussion such as this. Time and time again, dealer strength is very important.
    Paul is experienced with this- things happen....everyday.
    Bud, I'm a bit lost on the FD thing myself.
    OM
    "Well they say.. time loves a hero but only time will tell.. If he's real, he's a legend from heaven If he ain't he was sent here from hell" Lowell George
    2009 F800GS 1994 TW200
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  9. #9
    Registered User kgadley01's Avatar
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    I also doubt the FD failure had anything to do with changing tires. Remember BMW has had some FD issues over the later years. I cured my problems by going back to Airheads, and riding another brand on the real long trips.
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  10. #10
    BinkleyLane binkleylane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Man View Post
    I, in general, hate to someone bumping heads on this type of thing. When I use parts, products, services (do the work myself) I like to refer to the back page that is in a number of my aftermarket catalogs.........The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
    I have suffered from self-rescue as I always try to get home under my own steam, it's tough trying to get reimbursed for a repair that you had to do. Reimbursement after the fact is usually only achieved when there is a national recall. Have a real talk to the dealer and try to figure out what is really going on. If there is a flat out denial there is usually a reason, even a reason you may or may not agree with.
    OM
    When I decided to "splice" the front lead I knew I was going to eat the repair/part. I really wanted to get the speedo back for the last 1800 miles of the trip. I really did not want to sit in the desert and wait for the "hook" nor did I want to delay my return home. My real grip is that they blamed the tire installer for the failure of both the brake system and the final drive. I was not told, nor did I read in the warranty that anyone other than BMW replacing expendable parts on the bike would void any future warranty claims. That is just to convenient for them. The first question from the dealer after they evaluated the bike was " who changed the tires ". Given the fact that the failure occurred 5500 miles after the tire change pretty much excludes that event in my mind. The final drive issue was brought up only after I made a stink about the sensors. They said the vent cap was gone and water had been introduced to the drive. That was also a direct result of the "tire change". This is very strange. They did the 6000 mile service which included the FD service. I had the tries installed at 6200. We trailered the bike to The RA and back - no rain. I went to Salem and back - no rain. The bike has not been washed - I am not a clean freak, obviously. So I am wondering where the water came from.
    I am going to pick the bike up today. I will pay for the sensors repair. The FD issue will be evaluated by another dealer at my expense. My trust factor is in the red at this point so I need to verify the original diagnosis on the FD.

    Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
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  11. #11
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    If you have lost trust in the dealer why even bother to have them repair the sensor? I would just decline all repair and move on to the other dealer for a second opinion. Why give them any of your business any further feeling the way that you do? I am not passing judgement either way just making an observation.

  12. #12
    BinkleyLane binkleylane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Sorry. It does not seem to me that a wire rubbed through by a brake rotor following a tire change constitutes a defect in materials or workmanship in the manufacture of the vehicle. It sounds like a defect in the workmanship in reinstalling the wheel with a new tire.

    I don't think your field repair really has anything to do with it. The failure happened most likely because the wire was not properly clipped back where it belonged when the caliper with the wheel sensor was installed.

    If recourse is to be had I would think it would be from whomever installed the wheel.

    When something similar (bad axle tube, wheel wobble, ruined sensor) happened to us we just sucked it up and bought a new sensor, even though the root cause was a badly designed axle tube that reared its ugly head after the warranty had expired.
    Thanks for the response Paul. I really appreciate your insight.

    I thought that 5500 miles after the fact creates some doubt about their "theory". I just seems to convenient for them to first confirm that someone other than them replaced the tires and then blame that facility for the failure. And now they are using this to avoid the FD issues as well. They said that the FD vent was missing so they are not responsible for any issues that arise from that part being gone. I have no idea if that is possible or even plausible. I do know that the bike has not been in rain since the last FD service and (my bad) has not been washed since the last service at 6200 miles; present mileage 13200.
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  13. #13
    BinkleyLane binkleylane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moralem View Post
    If you have lost trust in the dealer why even bother to have them repair the sensor? I would just decline all repair and move on to the other dealer for a second opinion. Why give them any of your business any further feeling the way that you do? I am not passing judgement either way just making an observation.
    Good point. Unfortunately I think they did it already. But they have done anything with the final drive. I will get a second opinion on that.
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  14. #14
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by binkleylane View Post
    When I decided to "splice" the front lead I knew I was going to eat the repair/part. I really wanted to get the speedo back for the last 1800 miles of the trip. I really did not want to sit in the desert and wait for the "hook" nor did I want to delay my return home. My real grip is that they blamed the tire installer for the failure of both the brake system and the final drive. I was not told, nor did I read in the warranty that anyone other than BMW replacing expendable parts on the bike would void any future warranty claims. That is just to convenient for them. The first question from the dealer after they evaluated the bike was " who changed the tires ". Given the fact that the failure occurred 5500 miles after the tire change pretty much excludes that event in my mind. The final drive issue was brought up only after I made a stink about the sensors. They said the vent cap was gone and water had been introduced to the drive. That was also a direct result of the "tire change". This is very strange. They did the 6000 mile service which included the FD service. I had the tries installed at 6200. We trailered the bike to The RA and back - no rain. I went to Salem and back - no rain. The bike has not been washed - I am not a clean freak, obviously. So I am wondering where the water came from.
    I am going to pick the bike up today. I will pay for the sensors repair. The FD issue will be evaluated by another dealer at my expense. My trust factor is in the red at this point so I need to verify the original diagnosis on the FD.

    Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
    My bike had about 6000 miles on it when I had the ABS cable issue and my tires never had been changed. It could be an issue like mine where the assembly by the dealer was incorrect and it's not from the clip being positioned wrong, but the cable position when the tie wrap was installed. Since this is something that could have been discovered during a tire change, I guess the dealer and BMW are taking an a priori leap. I'd be interested to read what the other dealer says and I agree with the poster about not going back to the original dealer. Paying them after this is paying for an insult. Not going to bat for you because you went to someone else for the tires is short sighted, petty, parochial and provincial. You need to use a different and better dealer.
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  15. #15
    Registered User lmo1131's Avatar
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    So, after all was said and done, what was the bottom line of repairs?

    I'm also rather curious to know why your final drive was inspected to begin with. Did they drain the FD oil and replace it, or just tell you it had water in it? Considering the price of a few ccs of oil I wouldn't be holding too much faith in a dealer that didn't go that extra step to keep a customer on the road.
    "It is what you discover, after you know it all, that counts." _ John Wooden

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