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Thread: 2010 (DOHC) R1200GS Engine Vibration

  1. #16
    Registered User rebake's Avatar
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    Tires?
    Ed Baker

  2. #17
    Registered User strmboui05's Avatar
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    Unhappy Stump the Dummy!

    I am not sure if I said in this thread, Pull in theClutch and off the throttle and coast at 80 mph bike, handle bars, footpegs go dead smooth.

    Last night tried this coil stick test:
    Disconnect the lower coil connection from EACH side so you're only running on the main plug on each side. If the bike fires and runs ok (if one of the main coils has failed completely the bike will only fire on one side) then take if for a quick 5 minute ride, and make the engine labour by using a higher gear than normal to check if one is failing under load. If all is ok reconnect the lower coils and then do the same procedure with the main coils.
    Each time the the engine ran great even lugging in 5th qand 6th for both top and Botom coils. Had a buddy repeat the same procedure and same result stong pulling, no hesitation, no chug, no coughs, no misses, no backfire.

    I didn't realize that it would run so well with the top Coils unpluged.

    Running out of ideas. I will check all touques on engine/frame/gas tank/etc.

    Send me your ideas, I'm all out!
    rac

  3. #18
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strmboui05 View Post
    The Lamda Sensor voltage was dead on and the Graphical display wss inbetween the the Green uper and lower linses with minimal spikes at eithe end for the O2 sensors.
    I assume you mean they were switching (lean/rich/lean/rich)? Someplace I have an image of the output of mine on the GS-911.. but will have to dig around for it.

    The only thing I was able to to do with the Coil Sticks was to determine if all four had a strong spark and they did. I believe the only true test for Coil sticks is substitue each CS with a known operational CS and ride the bike.

    I will start through the the bike tourque list and see if something is loose and has setup a harmonic distortion/vibration. I have riden the bike with all the accessories (Crashbars, Valve cover protectors, Skid plate, Panniers, top box) off the bike to see if any of these make a difference. Hopefully it is just a loose motor mount bolt all is well.
    Thanks,
    rac
    Good luck with it. I know exactly how frustrating this can be..
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
    Spring Lk Heights NJ NJ Shore BMW Riders New Sweden BMW Riders
    '07 R1200R (current ride) and some bimmers.. and a Porsche

  4. #19
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    Just stumbled upon this thread. Similar issues and looking for improvements.

    Quote Originally Posted by strmboui05 View Post
    I am not sure if I said in this thread, Pull in theClutch and off the throttle and coast at 80 mph bike, handle bars, footpegs go dead smooth.

    Last night tried this coil stick test:
    Disconnect the lower coil connection from EACH side so you're only running on the main plug on each side. If the bike fires and runs ok (if one of the main coils has failed completely the bike will only fire on one side) then take if for a quick 5 minute ride, and make the engine labour by using a higher gear than normal to check if one is failing under load. If all is ok reconnect the lower coils and then do the same procedure with the main coils.
    Each time the the engine ran great even lugging in 5th qand 6th for both top and Botom coils. Had a buddy repeat the same procedure and same result stong pulling, no hesitation, no chug, no coughs, no misses, no backfire.

    I didn't realize that it would run so well with the top Coils unpluged.

    Running out of ideas. I will check all touques on engine/frame/gas tank/etc.

    Send me your ideas, I'm all out!
    rac
    My bike is a 09 R1200 GSA with 45k miles. A few days ago I made a quick 520 miles round trip on the super slab and was pretty annoyed by the vibrations between 4000 and 5500 rpm. The vibrations got worse with hp output or with a load increase like going uphill or head wind. going down hill it was bearable. Pull in the clutch at speed and it's smooth as glass. Therefore mine is definitely engine related.

    My right mirror is vibrating more than the left (just another observation). Yesterday I started trying to figure out if I could figure out what is causing this and if I could make some improvements. After reading several post and what others have found I think I have several issues.

    One thing that I found was that my bike runs the same if I disconnect the bottom stick coils. However when I disconnect the main side coils it wont go over 40 mph. Its run and idles with reduced power and completely dies under load, just like it hit the rev limiter or somebody hit the kill switch. From reading the above post I think it might be save to conclude that my bike has an electrical issue with either the bottom plugs, stick coils, or some other electrical issue. Because it happened under load it think it must be the stick coils.

    Besides the bottom plug issue I was able to make a significant, therefore noticeable improvement. Checked valve clearance and all where within spec. Just did them about 3000 miles ago. Got the GS-911 out and went thru the whole thing and made no changes as none where necessary either. When I checked the throttle body syn the FIRST time it was within spec also. The 2nd time I decided to put a tee in the line and leave the hose that hooks up on the LH throttle body (US models only) as part of the test. There is was a noticeable difference. Throttle body sync near perfect as I have ever seen it with the hose disconnect, Sinc is all messed with it hooked up. This hose goes to the charcoal canister and can be disconnected. I decided to go test ride the bike with the hose off and the test port plugged. Bottom line for me, less vibration, smoother at idle, noticeable clearer right mirror. I have a winner here!!!

    After these findings I decided to figure out a way to leave my synchronization tool hooked up during these short test rides. By doing that I found out two things. Right now synchronizations is best when the LH test port is plugged. Its even better when the bottom stick coils are disconnected (I already found out earlier that I must have some issues with those).

    FYI must sync tool is simply a 15 ft clear hose filled for about 1/3 with transmission fluid. The specific gravity of transmission fluid is roughly 14 times less than mercury. The highest difference that I observed was 6" transmission fluid (= 0.4"Hg not bad). The best was, dead even at 4500 rpm and <1" at idle.

    I think we should keep this thread going and when both bottom stick coils are replaced I will report back.
    ~TJ
    From: The fastest growing town in Texas, it's Dublin every day!
    2009 BMW R1200 GSA
    IBA 45734, Member MOA, VRCC and PGR

  5. #20
    Registered User lkraus's Avatar
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    My understanding is that the lower coils are only used at lower RPM to improve emissions and prevent surging (which explains running out of power with the upper coils disconnected). At least, that is the explanation I've read for the lower spark plugs always having less wear and a darker color. So I doubt the lower coils are causing vibration at freeway rpm. Also throttle sync is an issue at and just above idle, above that the ZFE adjusts mixture based on the O2 sensor readings.
    Larry
    2006 R1200RT

  6. #21
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkraus View Post
    Also throttle sync is an issue at and just above idle, above that the ZFE adjusts mixture based on the O2 sensor readings.
    I'm not understanding this too well... let me think it out out-loud:

    At idle the sync is handled by the stepper motor bypasses. The throttle plates are actually fully closed (unlike oilheads) at idle. Right off idle is where the sync is most easily checked, since the amount of difference between the two TBs is a larger proportion of the total airflow - meaning it's easier to see. The actual sync should retain whatever offset there is (if any) throughout the range of throttle opening - if your cables are good and the junction box is good. Which is why we suggest adjusting the sync (if needed) just off idle (between 1,200-1,800 RPM.)

    BMW's instructions - if you can decipher them on the REP-ROM are to note the amount of offset in an actual value at idle, and maintain that offset (not percentage of offset) throughout the throttle range. IE - if the right side offset is 0.01mBar at idle - then at 2,000 RPM the offset AMOUNT should remain the same. If the left side read a total of 1.00mBar, then the right side should be 1.00mBar + 0.01mBar for a total of 1.01Mbar. In my experience, if the valves are adjusted correctly - you can come fairly close to perfect throttle-body balance over the full range of engine RPM (mine is very close) at least on the hexheads. Dunno on camheads - haven't done one.

    While the O2 sensors do correct mixture (most of the time) - this is really a separate function from the throttle body balance. There are two O2 sensors - one for each cylinder, and even if the throttle-body balance is out, the ECU will correctly adjust the mixture for EACH cylinder for whatever amount of air is in the combustion mix.

    The O2 sensors DO adjust the mixture at idle - this is easily seen on the GS-911. The heated sensors used on the hex/cam-head are quite fast to start working (within about 15-20 seconds of when the engine is started), and you can then observe the output switching hi-low using the GS-911 plotting feature. The switching is an indication that the ECU is adjusting the mixture (if the O2 sensors saw a constant mixture at idle - they would have a constant output.)

    The vacuum hose that goes to the left throttle body is the one from the purge valve for the charcoal canister. The electronic purge valve only opens under certain engine conditions. The amount of additional air introduced to the left side throttle body is small in comparison to the amount of air that is flowing through it at the RPMs in question. While it might seem to introduce a small imbalance - I suspect it is really not a major contributing factor to the vibration. It's simple enough to check - just disconnect it and cap off the input port on the throttle body. If the vibration is reduced enough to be noticeable - then you've found one smoking gun. FWIW - my charcoal canister was in the way of adjusting my front shock, so it's been on the shelf and I just haven't gotten around (in 76,000 miles) to putting it back on. I did cap off the throttle body, and did a bit of re-routing of the hoses so the tank vent now goes to a vent hose near the left footpeg.

    The goal of balancing the TB's is to get an equal amount of power from each cylinder on each combustion cycle. This is when the engine runs the smoothest with the least vibration. The amount of air going into the cylinders should be balanced in order to help achieve this. The amount of fuel going into each cylinder should also be balanced, and the valve openings should be the same. All of these will have an effect on the combustion balance of the engine (as can other things such as bad ignition, or carbon buildup resulting in different compression in the cylinders.)

    Dunno about the bottom coils/plugs only being used at lower RPMs, I've never seen anything about this. Just noodling in my head - since the purpose of the two plugs is to help start a larger flame front on the ignition of the compressed mixture, to my way of thinking, this would be equally important at higher RPMs as at lower RPMs. But that's just noodling - don't mistake it for any sort of factual data.
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
    Spring Lk Heights NJ NJ Shore BMW Riders New Sweden BMW Riders
    '07 R1200R (current ride) and some bimmers.. and a Porsche

  7. #22
    Registered User lkraus's Avatar
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    Clearly, I did not put enough thought into what I was saying about the throttle balance. Ignore that part of the post.

    I've looked for more info on the lower coils instead of relying on a fuzzy memory of what someone might of posted. The best I can find is this from the 2004 press release on the R1200GS:

    "Featured in all BMW Boxers since 2003 (with the exception of the 850cc power units), dual ignition has been further modified and improved on the R1200GS. The auxiliary spark plug is now arranged at the outer edge of the cylinder, the ignition timing of both plugs being freely programmable as a function of load and engine speed in order to further optimise running smoothness, emission management, and fuel economy. Referred to as "phase shift", this adjustment process is maintained consistently all the way from part load to full load.

    In practice, this means different ignition timing points on both spark plugs in defined control map areas. When approaching full load, where dual ignition no longer provides any benefits, the phase shift effect is so large that the spark crosses over on the auxiliary plug in the expansion cycle (60 degrees at TDC). For all practical purposes this corresponds to single ignition on the central spark plug under full load."


    I think the idea of the lower plugs not firing comes from that last paragraph. Apparently, under full load, they fire so late that they are not contributing to power production? Now I'm wondering if 4-5K rpm cruising would be considered "full load"? If not, the lower coils may indeed be needed to keep the engine running smoothly at those speeds.
    Larry
    2006 R1200RT

  8. #23
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkraus View Post

    I think the idea of the lower plugs not firing comes from that last paragraph. Apparently, under full load, they fire so late that they are not contributing to power production? Now I'm wondering if 4-5K rpm cruising would be considered "full load"? If not, the lower coils may indeed be needed to keep the engine running smoothly at those speeds.
    I have no real information as to what the author meant by "full load" but would be shocked if any automotive engineer considers an engine toodling along steady state at 40% to 50% of redline as full load. Typically full load would be at a lower rpm when the throttle is suddenly fully opened, or for that matter, at any rpm when the throttle is opened so that the engine is seeking to increase rpm as quickly as it can.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by strmboui05 View Post
    I am not sure if I said in this thread, Pull in theClutch and off the throttle and coast at 80 mph bike, handle bars, footpegs go dead smooth.

    Last night tried this coil stick test:
    Disconnect the lower coil connection from EACH side so you're only running on the main plug on each side. If the bike fires and runs ok (if one of the main coils has failed completely the bike will only fire on one side) then take if for a quick 5 minute ride, and make the engine labour by using a higher gear than normal to check if one is failing under load. If all is ok reconnect the lower coils and then do the same procedure with the main coils.
    Each time the the engine ran great even lugging in 5th qand 6th for both top and Botom coils. Had a buddy repeat the same procedure and same result stong pulling, no hesitation, no chug, no coughs, no misses, no backfire.

    I didn't realize that it would run so well with the top Coils unpluged.


    Running out of ideas. I will check all touques on engine/frame/gas tank/etc.

    Send me your ideas, I'm all out!
    rac
    Thank y'all (that's Texan for "you all") for the replies!

    When I performed the above stick coil test the outcome was significantly different. There might be a difference between '09 and '10 models? On mine the bottom coils only worked up to 40-50 mph. Who or how could one find the answer to that question?

    Bypassing the charcoal canister and plugging the test port was definitely an improvement for my bike. After a 250 miles ride yesterday, it was an easy decision. Maybe the solenoid failed in the open position because it is open at idle. Either way I have removed the canister and rerouted the vent tube and capped the valve. That takes care of that!!

    Some food for thought..................The fuel mileage on my bike when running Interstate speeds (75-80 GPS indicated) is around 30-32 mpg. Not the best. My bike has been modified to fit me. Me is 6'7", 270 lbs all geared up. My custom seat is 1" above stock. The windshield is 4" taller and wider than stock, etc. At 55mph I get 48-52 mpg. Translation into usage per hour: At Interstate speeds my bike uses almost 3 gallon per hour and at 55mph only 1 gallon per hour. I guess one could make the argument that power output at Interstate speed is 3x higher and that equals more vibrations also. Fuel usage/hour versus load or power output should be fairly linear. The question is how does this tie in with the bottom/top stick coils if any?
    ~TJ
    From: The fastest growing town in Texas, it's Dublin every day!
    2009 BMW R1200 GSA
    IBA 45734, Member MOA, VRCC and PGR

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkraus View Post

    I've looked for more info on the lower coils instead of relying on a fuzzy memory of what someone might of posted. The best I can find is this from the 2004 press release on the R1200GS:
    I just found this thread on advrider. Inmate StepToe made some good comments about trouble shooting stick coils on R1200 series bikes.

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=946092&page=2

    His comments go with other peoples findings. The poor guy ends up beating his head against the wall! Based on that I ordered new stick coils. Fingers crossed!
    ~TJ
    From: The fastest growing town in Texas, it's Dublin every day!
    2009 BMW R1200 GSA
    IBA 45734, Member MOA, VRCC and PGR

  11. #26
    Cam Killer marchyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5_19 View Post
    Thank y'all (that's Texan for "you all") for the replies!
    They speak funny in Texas. Once when visiting Georgia I was informed (after apparently using y'all incorrectly) that y'all is singular. The plural form was "all y'all". By those rules you should have written "Thanks all y'all"...

    I hope the coils solve your issues. With respect to your MPG numbers they are not that surprising to me given the taller and wider windshield. My standard '05 GS with a cut down windshield would get around 42 MPG at 70 MPH. That would drop to 36-38 MPG at 80 MPH. The windshield may have been cut down but the addition of touratech Zega panniers didn't help any. I was surprised by MPG in the low 30s fighting a desert head wind one ride.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by marchyman View Post
    The plural form was "all y'all". By those rules you should have written "Thanks all y'all"...
    You are absolutely right, I stand corrected....... LOL!
    ~TJ
    From: The fastest growing town in Texas, it's Dublin every day!
    2009 BMW R1200 GSA
    IBA 45734, Member MOA, VRCC and PGR

  13. #28
    P Monk
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    y'all got it wrong.

    I looked it up in my Texas dictionary. Y'all is plural. It is used when addressing a few, or small group.
    All y'all us only used when addressing many.

    As in all y'all yankees are like hemorrhoids, and such like. It is the equivalent to "yous guys". And vibrating Beemers are
    very irritating, so I hope you let usens know what the cure ends up being.
    P. Monk
    My prized possessions. 74 R90/6 Mine! (also know by bride as the Black Hole). 09 R1200 GS. My wife, 1953 model who has survived aplastic anemia and a bone marrow transplant. My most prized possession is my relationship with Jesus!

  14. #29
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    I have the same problem as the OP of this thread. 2010 GSA running great until 40,000 km and all hell broke loose. I was riding on the highway and it felt like riding in cobblestones. Started with the easy things. Changed my tires, set the valves , changed the plugs. Checked the stick coils an 02 sensors. The dealer changed the injectors and throttle actuators and then all the cables at the Bowden box. No change!
    My next concern is that something mechanical in the engine has gone out of balance and this will never be resolved without an engine change. Or, possibly Carbon build up on one piston ? It is constant, consistent, vibration . I have no trust in the dealer resolving the issue. I think any minor imbalance in the boxer engine will result in annoying vibration. I'm just about done unless someone can magically solve the problem

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpw1200 View Post
    I have the same problem as the OP of this thread. 2010 GSA running great until 40,000 km and all hell broke loose. I was riding on the highway and it felt like riding in cobblestones. Started with the easy things. Changed my tires, set the valves , changed the plugs. Checked the stick coils an 02 sensors. The dealer changed the injectors and throttle actuators and then all the cables at the Bowden box. No change!
    My next concern is that something mechanical in the engine has gone out of balance and this will never be resolved without an engine change. Or, possibly Carbon build up on one piston ? It is constant, consistent, vibration . I have no trust in the dealer resolving the issue. I think any minor imbalance in the boxer engine will result in annoying vibration. I'm just about done unless someone can magically solve the problem
    Mine was kind of gradual and just seems it kept getting worse. What happened at 40,000km? Was it after service etc? Where are you located?
    ~TJ
    From: The fastest growing town in Texas, it's Dublin every day!
    2009 BMW R1200 GSA
    IBA 45734, Member MOA, VRCC and PGR

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