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Thread: ALL R1200's (and other BMWs) - NHTSA investigation into fuel leaks progressing..

  1. #16
    Cam Killer marchyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribble99@msn.com View Post
    This is the first issue I'd count as an issue for the bike that was beyond my control ...
    Beyond your control? I don't believe installing a new part is all that difficult... the $500 cost because apparently you can only buy the housing with the $325 fuel pump and $55 strainer is another story. I am assuming that the replacement part is available if you're willing to cough up the cash.

  2. #17
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    I am an R1200R rider and materials engineer with automotive experience in metals and plastics.I have been involved in NHTSA recalls. From what I see in tribble99's photo, the problem looks to be one of environmental stress cracking--a combination of stresses in the component and some environmental factor that leads to cracking over time. The corrective action for such a problem is to either reduce the stresses or eliminate the environmental factor. The stresses can be from the tightening of the male fitting and/or from residual stresses in the plastic molded part.The environmental factor could be fuel related or it could be from external factors, such as service environment (i.e. heat, air pollutants, cleaning agents, etc.) I am not familiar with the band type fix for this issue, but one problem I can see with this approach is that injection molded plastic parts have draft on the surfaces, like bosses, which results in a taper. Hard to clamp on a taper. You also have surface cleanliness, which works to defeat adhesive repair attempts. Plastic molded parts typically have release agents applied to allow extraction after molding and this inhibits adhesive bonding repairs unless the surface is scuffed up. One other comment I have is that with a metal male fitting vs a plastic one, there is the possibility of developing higher stresses while tighening the metal one in an uncontrolled installation process.
    Last edited by swall; 09-02-2013 at 08:18 PM. Reason: typo

  3. #18
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    All those key points apply here. The fuel supply and containment system is a sloppy design all around and can create multiple problems for owners. The fuel gauge strip is a separate problem, another design not fit for the real world, but not related to the fuel pump flange area issues- some of which create leaks and others that don't.

    The flange materials are wrong for a starter. A flimsy plastic female fitting (wrong plastic- not a reinforced type) receives a plastic male that is easily torqued a bit too much. Its the usual pipe thread type so simply wedges the female fitting to crack over time or immediately if greatly overtorqued. A correct plastic, exact torques allowing for aging effects, or metal parts to reinforce will work for stopping that cracking at or around the female bit on the flange. Or one could redesign this attachment point to seal by means other than a pipe thread or use an altogether different type of connection at a redesigned flange. Many options available - only a question of cost and practicality about which to choose.

    The system uses plastic QDs and these also fail when the male fitting cracks at its tube section which is relatively thin walled. Years ago I saw a post by an individual claiming to be employed by the maker of these bit who said they advised BMW not to use them but I can't vouch for the truth of that claim. These fittings can be damaged by careless handling and all the usual means. BMW offers metal males these days but again did nothing for bikes in service other than regular warranty coverage.

    The fpc- both its design and position is another problem at the flange location, that is not related to leaks- only reliability. There have been thousands of fpc failures. BMW has made a design upgrade to the fpc and repositioned it on newer bikes but done nothing to address this on older bikes other than regular warranty coverage. Having a bike quit at speed in traffic is a safety problem IMO.

    I don't know who designed the bits and selected the materials at the fuel flange but I hope they've fired him by now- the design has so many screwups a first year engineering student should see - its ridiculous when looked at closely.

    Owners have created a few problems attempting to fix this mess- like overtightening a metal male replacement into the plastic female at the flange and creating a crack.

    I replaced a dead fpc on mine and added a metal band to the female flange fitting as a preemptive measure to prevent cracks developing over time as the plastic stretches in response to the wedge forces of the pipe thread design.

  4. #19
    Registered User manx1089@yahoo.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribble99@msn.com View Post
    All - Looking for advice in this arena and maybe direction if I am in the wrong forum to ask. My bike began spraying gas last week - I filed with NHTSA and after reading potential options went the route of trying DIY with the aluminum shroud from Beemerboneyard and JB Weld - I let it cure for two days and tried riding to work Friday without issue. Saturday I washed the grime and smelled gas again - When I took off the fairing the leak was oozing out from under the epoxy.

    Question is do I cut my losses and have my "reasonably" close dealer (50 miles) just replace the fuel pump assembly and hope to be heard by BMW? I recognize the wheels turn slow, but the "local dealer" reacted just as everyone above noted (first we heard of it) and I'm tempted to simply pay for the fix so that the bike doesn't languish in the garage and hope for the best. I've stripped the intake back to plastic and I am re-trying the shroud with a homemade gasket and epoxy application - Goal is to wait it out and have BMW help, but based on what I have read, it would make more sense to just get it fixed and be riding again in a couple of weeks.

    Please advise - This is the first issue I'd count as an issue for the bike that was beyond my control - In the image below you can see the "cracks" are past the point of simple epoxy repair - Thank you, Tim


    Attachment 41592
    If it is leaking from a crack in the bung it can be repaired ,,I used JB weld on my pump and I have over 45K miles on the repair,,,No Leaks,,, Install clamp,,Coat inside female pump treads and male treads on the quick release fitting with JB weld,,Screw in fitting as tight as you can by hand,,Don"t wipe of Excess coming out of the top,, Tighten clamp,( just snug it up ) let dry for 24 hours ,,Plug in you fuel line and ride,,,,Have done this repair on over 20 bike and not one has leaked,,,

  5. #20
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayElDee View Post
    Is it considered prudent to swap out to the metal disconnects on the 1200s? It was an imperative on the 1150s
    On the Hexheads, the QD isn't subjected to the same sort of heat. I have been upgrading them on a by-eye basis so far, but I upgrade all of the 11xx ones every time now.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
    On the Hexheads, the QD isn't subjected to the same sort of heat. I have been upgrading them on a by-eye basis so far, but I upgrade all of the 11xx ones every time now.
    HI, Anton, thanks for the input.
    The term you use, "by-eye basis," does that mean you do not remove the tank solely to look for trouble, but if you have the tank off for some other reason then you will inspect and possibly replace?

    John

  7. #22
    Addicted to curves azgman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swall View Post
    I am an R1200R rider and materials engineer with automotive experience in metals and plastics.I have been involved in NHTSA recalls. From what I see in tribble99's photo, the problem looks to be one of environmental stress cracking--a combination of stresses in the component and some environmental factor that leads to cracking over time. The corrective action for such a problem is to either reduce the stresses or eliminate the environmental factor. The stresses can be from the tightening of the male fitting and/or from residual stresses in the plastic molded part.The environmental factor could be fuel related or it could be from external factors, such as service environment (i.e. heat, air pollutants, cleaning agents, etc.) I am not familiar with the band type fix for this issue, but one problem I can see with this approach is that injection molded plastic parts have draft on the surfaces, like bosses, which results in a taper. Hard to clamp on a taper. You also have surface cleanliness, which works to defeat adhesive repair attempts. Plastic molded parts typically have release agents applied to allow extraction after molding and this inhibits adhesive bonding repairs unless the surface is scuffed up. One other comment I have is that with a metal male fitting vs a plastic one, there is the possibility of developing higher stresses while tighening the metal one in an uncontrolled installation process.
    This problem could be solved by having a metal top on the fuel pump assembly rather than plastic. I had to replace my fuel pump assembly and replaced all of the QD fittings with metal ones except for the male end that threads into the tapered plastic fuel pump assembly. Too easy to crack it!
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  8. #23
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    07 RT1200 RT - Fuel Leak Last Week (NHTSA ID Number 10536814) - Follow up

    All - Thank you for the good discussion (again, if I am posting in the wrong area, please move me) - BMW contacted me back today and told me what everyone prefaced they would tell me - Out of warranty, not original owner, costs are out of your pocket, "if" a recall happens, you "might" be reimbursed, but it is really out of BMW's hands. Thanks for being a BMW rider...

    I took MarchyMan's advice and simply ordered a new OEM pump assembly from 2wheelpros.com - Cost was about $25.00 less than everyone else and I am going to try turning my own wrenches. Worst case scenario is I put the new assembly in and it doesn't work; then I go to closest dealer (50 miles) on a trailer and learn something new - Tough part is the incredible weather and being in a cage -

    "Beyond my control" story was a bad decision by me and pushing a rear tire to get back home to IL from LA on a Sunday morning - Should have waited until Monday and replaced the tire with whatever I could find in Monroe - Pushed north and ended up stranded in Cape Girardeau, Mo (they are closed on Sundays and Mondays) - No damage to the bike, and with no trailer in town to rent, my wife had to come get me using a borrowed truck and trailer from friends... Really dumb choice by me that ended up costing me lots of money and a lot of 'atta boy' equity from my better half... So dumb...

    Thanks again,
    Tim

  9. #24
    . AntonLargiader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayElDee View Post
    The term you use, "by-eye basis," does that mean you do not remove the tank solely to look for trouble, but if you have the tank off for some other reason then you will inspect and possibly replace?
    On the 1200s, the QDs are right on top; no need to remove the tank. If things look new I generally don't bother to replace them, but eventually I do. It's not automatic... yet.
    Anton Largiader 72724
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