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Thread: A World First - Usage Based Insurance (Telematics) for Motorcycles

  1. #61
    K'nothead
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    Quote Originally Posted by racer7 View Post
    Why are you not arguing the whole nonsensical premise of this program? It is obviously just one more way to make or justify making $ off of minor speed issues when human judgement is more important.
    I'm not sure why you think I haven't advanced these arguments, but how can I be sure its nonsensical, unless I investigate it?

    As to our speed limits, the allowable overage of 16% on top of our limit of 110 kph, means that anything under 127.6 kph (79 mph) is not notable. That's pretty close to what you're saying is fair. If I get cited for doing that speed by a cop, the ticket would be in the >$200 range, and the money goes into gov't revenues and doesn't help defer overall insurance costs. The exact methodology for handling overspeeds hasn't been determined yet, but our understanding at this point is that if you have enough of them related to the distances travelled, you will have your insurance deduction reduced, and any monetary advantage the insurance company "makes" using this scheme would directly offset overall motorcycle insurance rates. The maximum deduction available using the device is yet to be determined, but 25% has been floated (I think it may have to be higher), and if you have enough overspeeds to raise a flag, it would by itself, only reduce the deduction by, say, 10%. Even if you raise every flag the device/system has, at worst, your insurance won't be any higher than it would have been if the device wasn't installed.

    Your comments about the importance of rider judgement are spot-on. From the insurance company's perspective, the intent of this device is to highlight (what they think are) errors in individual behavior that may indicate poor judgement. This is valid if any of the data is predictive in nature. For example, if a rider consistently has lots of overspeeds, that may indicate they are more likely to have an accident (their's or someone else's fault because of closing speeds, etc.) or at least have more severe consequences when/if they do.

    The predictive nature of cornering data (if they ever get that working) is harder for me to fathom. In Sask at least, there aren't a lot of complex corners, and going slower through 99% of them, doesn't mean you're going to be awake for the one you fall asleep on. Unfortunately, SGI's accident stats show that a very high percentage of at-fault m/c accidents occur at corners. But I'm still not convinced that monitoring our cornering speed will be all that predictive, and may become punitive for corner-junkies like myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by racer7 View Post
    How about automatic upcharges for every distracting device installed or carried in functional form? Distracted drivers kill a higher number here every year. a couple in my local club have been hit by these folks but lucky enough to get off without serious injury. A serious upcharge might put a crimp on makers installing more of this junk all the time- before lawsuits do it instead.
    If you can come up with an easily enforceable way to do this, you can sell it to every insurance company and enforcement agency in the continent. Unfortunately, in spite of all the present legislation and counter measures against distracted driving, texting and cell-phone use remains the most common, observable (except by enforcement agencies, apparently) infraction out there. Glad your local club buddies have been lucky so far, keep up the good work.

    JP

  2. #62
    K'nothead
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    End of Season

    My riding season just officially ended, as today, I suspended the registration and insurance on the bike for the winter. Similarly, the UBI pilot has run its course for this season, and now begins the analysis as far as SGI is concerned. This analysis entails not only the crunching of the digital bits and consideration of tester comments, but also the adjudication of what factors and values to flag for further attention.

    In addition to the ~300 riders that produced varying amounts of real-world data, in late August, Baseline (the contractor) and SGI held a data gathering session at the test track at the RCMP Training Depot in Regina. As one of the participants, I and my bike were rigged with cameras and supplemental electronics while the boffins observed and recorded us in hard accelerations, hard braking and corners, both steady-state sweepers and tight transitions on a couple of circuits. I appreciated the irony of enjoying "spirited" riding on the RCMP's own turf, with their approval and aegis! Interestingly, the same facility also hosts the local Canada Safety Council Motorcycle Safety Course, in addition to its RCMP training demands. The rider and motorcycle test group was small but relatively diverse, including pros and relative neophytes, Gold Wings and supermotos. One should expect the resultant data to be suitably all-over-the-map, and not necessarily represent any particular extreme.

    As for the live, day-to-day testing, we were monitored for overspeeds, hard accelerations, and hard braking. Using primarily the GPS tech at this point, each dimension nevertheless required considerable de-bugging, some of which is still ongoing, and some that will require an on-going process to adjudicate even after go-live.

    Major problems thus far, included database errors (i.e. speed limits entered incorrectly in the database), and system data collection or processing errors. As an example, for a month after the "Hard Acceleration" functionality was turned on, everyone, every time, experienced a Hard Acceleration shortly after starting the bike and riding away. Obviously, this was easy to identify and replicate, but the solution still took a month to fully implement. Some problems in this area still persist, and IMO, preclude releasing the system for production yet. Unfortunately now, gathering evidence and getting acceptance of the remaining issue(s) is more problematic.

    At this point, it is not known whether SGI will continue the trial into next season, attempt to go live as-is, or scrap the idea. In order to go live, SGI must finalize appropriate thresholds for Events, determine appropriate discounts or surcharges for device use, and provide a simple and fair process for dealing with on-going problems and new ones as they emerge. Any concept of whether, how, and how much cornering will be measured is also completely unknown.

    So, that's it for this season. What follows now is all backroom stuff, which hopefully we will get some input into, and until the results of that are better known, I'll not comment on the viability or desirability of the system or concept. Thanks for your interest and attention.

    Cheers
    John P

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20774 View Post
    Careful folks, a political bent doesn't seem that far away! Let's keep it coolish, OK?

    Thanks...
    So? What is wrong with a "political bent" here in the "Campfire" discussions? I can understand not having political stuff going on in the Airhead section but not here? Are not politics that affect motorcycling not discussible?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmylee View Post
    So? What is wrong with a "political bent" here in the "Campfire" discussions? I can understand not having political stuff going on in the Airhead section but not here? Are not politics that affect motorcycling not discussible?
    Politics are one of the hotbutton topics we skip here Jimmylee-
    Banned Topics-From the Posting Guidelines

    Over the years (and many winters) we've pretty much been able to identify some things that inevitably start flame wars, breed ill will, and just in general make people act in ways they'd never have believed themselves capable (and yes, that is meant in the bad way.) Below are a few of these topics:

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  5. #65
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    Could be wrong but aren't all new automobiles required by the model year 2015 to have installed recording boxes at least as sophisticated as the black boxes now on commercial aircraft? New bikes today are equipped just like cars with cats and the like. Black boxes likely are just around the corner. It's just like having the insurance company on the pillion. Whoopee!

  6. #66
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jopars View Post
    What follows now is all backroom stuff, which hopefully we will get some input into, and until the results of that are better known, I'll not comment on the viability or desirability of the system or concept. Thanks for your interest and attention.

    Cheers
    John P
    No problem for me to comment on the desirability.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  7. #67
    K'nothead
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ninety8 View Post
    It's just like having the insurance company on the pillion. Whoopee!
    Good analogy. A BIG problem if they weigh too much, or affect the handling.

    But, I'm okay with taking them for a ride if it improves the chances of them not taking me for one.

    JP

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jopars View Post
    So, that's it for this season. What follows now is all backroom stuff, which hopefully we will get some input into, and until the results of that are better known, I'll not comment on the viability or desirability of the system or concept. Thanks for your interest and attention.

    Cheers
    John P
    Very good work, John, even if I think the idea behind systems like this purely sucks.

    All I can say is that if I had to run something like this on my motorcycles it would be the end of riding for me. I'd kill this thing before it killed me (or it killed my wallet).

    I've always felt our sport would see its end when we could no longer afford the insurance.

    Systems like this spell the end of motorcycling.

    At least on-road...

    Ian
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by sibud View Post
    No problem for me to comment on the desirability.
    yeahbutt... you ride like an old man!

  10. #70
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visian View Post
    yeahbutt... you ride like an old man!

    Hey now, I represent that.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

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