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Thread: Which GPS to get?

  1. #31
    Steve rockbottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMOTO View Post
    I'm not casting aspersions, but really all of them? You have to check after each map and sw update, too, which is easy to overlook.

    If yes to the above, I suspect you have a corrupted file of some kind and I would try to download fresh GPS (not map) files from Garmin; they can supply you with a link for that. It is also possible that the map file on your GPS has been corrupted, and I would delete and replace that, too.
    It's happened across multiple units. Week before last Garmin had me do a master re-set. When that didn't work they said they'd replace it for $60. Since that would be the fifth replacement of the unit in three years, I decided it wasn't worth betting $60 of my money that the next one would work.

  2. #32
    Registered User Emoto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockbottom View Post
    It's happened across multiple units.
    Hmm. If every GPS does the same thing, then it points to the source, meaning your PC. That would me me want to uninstall and then re-install all the garmin stuff.

    However, are you sure you are using enough via and/or shaping points to tack your route to the roads you want them on? I find that to be key. A slight difference in routing algorithm between BaseCamp and the GPS would send the route differently. I lock mine down with plenty of shaping points. Do not expect that a route with just a starting point and ending point will route identically because they will not. Shaping points are necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by rockbottom View Post
    Week before last Garmin had me do a master re-set. When that didn't work they said they'd replace it for $60. Since that would be the fifth replacement of the unit in three years, I decided it wasn't worth betting $60 of my money that the next one would work.
    A master reset might have eliminated things you might have done to the unit, but I would still download all new software for the GPS. That's free, but I think they have to tell you the link for it.
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  3. #33
    Registered User chewbacca's Avatar
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    At first I hated BaseCamp and clung to MapSource until a conversation with Garmin where the tech said words to the effect routing will be screwed up if you use MapSource because the street segment format is designed for BaseCamp now. I no longer trust any "ROUTE" in either product and make all my routes (not to be confused with a ROUTE) as tracks. If you look closely at your routes you can have bow tie looking things anywhere you have clusters of roads, like cities. You can clean them up as a ROUTE but a track is easier to get exactly what you want and then you can make your ROUTE. It also pays to look closely at a ROUTE when loaded and see if any extra points have been added. I've had that happen and had to delete them to get back to what I want. ANY time you recalc after you have loaded a longer ROUTE, it will change the ROUTE from what you put in. If you get a route from a buddy, and you don't have the same map version and you don't have the same configuration exactly the same, you and your buddy most likely won't follow the same path. Using tracks will fix that issue too. If your buddy sends you his track, you can make sure the ROUTE you make follows the same path he sent you.
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  4. #34
    Steve rockbottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewbacca View Post
    At first I hated BaseCamp and clung to MapSource until a conversation with Garmin where the tech said words to the effect routing will be screwed up if you use MapSource because the street segment format is designed for BaseCamp now. I no longer trust any "ROUTE" in either product and make all my routes (not to be confused with a ROUTE) as tracks. If you look closely at your routes you can have bow tie looking things anywhere you have clusters of roads, like cities. You can clean them up as a ROUTE but a track is easier to get exactly what you want and then you can make your ROUTE. It also pays to look closely at a ROUTE when loaded and see if any extra points have been added. I've had that happen and had to delete them to get back to what I want. ANY time you recalc after you have loaded a longer ROUTE, it will change the ROUTE from what you put in. If you get a route from a buddy, and you don't have the same map version and you don't have the same configuration exactly the same, you and your buddy most likely won't follow the same path. Using tracks will fix that issue too. If your buddy sends you his track, you can make sure the ROUTE you make follows the same path he sent you.
    That's good to know but it still leaves open the question of what, for the love of Pete, were Garmin's management and software engineers thinking to push a product that forces the user community to search for convoluted work arounds to basic design flaws, whether loading new maps using the old installer rather than the new one, or this work around? Seems to be it would be simpler and better business to develop functional software in the first place rather than rely on your customers to find ways to work through your mistakes.
    Last edited by rockbottom; 07-12-2013 at 05:15 PM.

  5. #35
    Registered User chewbacca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockbottom View Post
    That's good to know but it still leaves open the question of what, for the love of Pete, were Garmin's management and software engineers thinking to push a product that forces the user community to search for convoluted work arounds to basic design flaws, whether loading new maps using the old installer rather than the new one, or this work around? Seems to be it would be simpler and better business to develop functional software in the first place rather than rely on your customers to find ways to work through your mistakes.
    Just to get myself in trouble, a place I have dwelt in for too many years, I have to say that most people don't ever see the problems. When Garmin had the GPS45 and other early units you couldn't make a route that crossed itself or returned to the starting point. The new stuff is infinitely better than what was out there even in the Quest and GPS IV when it comes to routing. Routing AIN'T easy. There is a branch of mathematics called topology, I believe, that deals with it in pretty clean examples. Our road network AIN'T clean. I make maps for 911 centers and companies like NavTech buy my data to build those maps. My streets are pretty good, but lots of other places make crap. One person may draw a map where a road going under an interstate actually connects to the interstate. Can you see how that will screw up a routing algorithm? All the roads must me marked and weighted correctly. The reason I mentioned in my previous post about using tracks is that you can adjust your path without all the assumptions that a routing algorithm imposes on you. IMO, don't be too hard on those software guys, they have to make their six figure salaries someway.
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  6. #36
    Steve rockbottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewbacca View Post
    One person may draw a map where a road going under an interstate actually connects to the interstate.

    MapSource did that to me by telling me to turn on VA Rt 97 off of the Blue Ridge Parkway at the end of a 400 mile ride in triple digit heat (97 runs under the BRP). Made me love Garmin all the more! By the way, that error is STILL in the Garmin map sets.

    But I take your point that it's hard but here's an idea: don't push out software that isn't functional. And there is no excuse for taking common functions that could be done with 2 or 3 clicks in Map Source and making them take 7 or 8 in Base Camp. A freshman in software engineering knows better than that.

  7. #37
    Registered User Emoto's Avatar
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    So, is the goal just to bitch about Garmin, or to figure out how to put routes on your unit that go where you expect them to?
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  8. #38
    Steve rockbottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMOTO View Post
    So, is the goal just to bitch about Garmin, or to figure out how to put routes on your unit that go where you expect them to?
    Both!

  9. #39
    Registered User Emoto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockbottom View Post
    Both!


    So.. start using the insert tool and tack your routes down where you want them.

    This is a decent page: http://garminbasecamp.wikispaces.com/Routes
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  10. #40
    Steve rockbottom's Avatar
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    I just now uploaded a route from Base Camp that was 358 miles with 40 waypoints. It showed up on the device as 367. If I recalculate, it shows up as 356. I am 100% certain that when I turn the GPS back on and load the route tomorrow morning, it will be something different.

  11. #41
    Steve rockbottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMOTO View Post


    So.. start using the insert tool and tack your routes down where you want them.

    This is a decent page: http://garminbasecamp.wikispaces.com/Routes
    Wait a minute--I just tried that and it just draws straight lines between the clicks. It would take an hour to design a 350 mile route that way. You're telling me that's the work around to Garmin's incompetence?

  12. #42
    Registered User Emoto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockbottom View Post
    I just now uploaded a route from Base Camp that was 358 miles with 40 waypoints. It showed up on the device as 367. If I recalculate, it shows up as 356. I am 100% certain that when I turn the GPS back on and load the route tomorrow morning, it will be something different.
    Use lots of shaping points, not lots of waypoints, because you may bump into waypoint limits on your GPS unit. The Insert tool. Just tack it down along key roads. It is something you have to work with to develop a feel for. I advise you to make a track of the route and have that showing in a different color so you can see where your route goes astray and then use shaping points to keep it in place.
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  13. #43
    Steve rockbottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMOTO View Post
    Use lots of shaping points, not lots of waypoints, because you may bump into waypoint limits on your GPS unit. The Insert tool. Just tack it down along key roads. It is something you have to work with to develop a feel for. I advise you to make a track of the route and have that showing in a different color so you can see where your route goes astray and then use shaping points to keep it in place.
    That's what I've done--the route calls them "via points" so I mispoke when I called them waypoints. They're the dots, not the little flags.

  14. #44
    Registered User Emoto's Avatar
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    You can also just put in a start and a finish and let basecamp route it, then use the insert tool to shift the route over to roads you like. Escape gets out and ctl+z is undo. Takes some time to get the knack of it, but if you have your basecamp preferences set up to how you like them so that the way it calculates is pretty close to what you want, then run along it with the insert tool and stitch it down or move it to the roads you like. Until you get a feel for it, make a contrasting color route so you can spot deviations easily. If you can see both on your gps unit screen, so much the better, so you can find out just how much adding of via points it takes. The video tutorials are decent, too. This one is not bad: http://youtu.be/b9Q2U3McvjM There are also some big threads on using basecamp andgps's on ADVrider in the Laying Down Tracks subforum.
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  15. #45
    Registered User chewbacca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockbottom View Post
    But I take your point that it's hard but here's an idea: don't push out software that isn't functional. And there is no excuse for taking common functions that could be done with 2 or 3 clicks in Map Source and making them take 7 or 8 in Base Camp. A freshman in software engineering knows better than that.
    Did you ever hear of a little company by the name of MicroSoft??? They do that all the time. Vista was a good example. EVERY piece of software I have ever operated has its problems. (My staff and I use a GIS software package called ArcMAP, we have ten copies at $9K each, it has more bugs than the Amazon rain forest. It's pretty much the only game in town so we make it work) Emoto made a really good point, do you want to bitch about the software or make it do what you want/need it to do.

    Bottom line in this is that Garmin does claim wondrous things about the routing capabilities of its units. Those claims tend to be inaccurate if you take them at face value. You have to work to build good routes. It isn't plug and play like Garmin would like you to believe. I make Routes that WORK, period. I've already told you how. #1 use tracks to build exactly what you want. #2 examine and standardize what options you set (shortest distance, no uturns, etc). That goes for the unit too because it does a calc on load. #3 check the loaded route against BaseCamp for bogus points and routing in critical area. #4 always have the same map version in BaseCamp and in the unit. #5 use BaseCamp and get rid of MapSource if you are using maps that have been updated in the last year or two. #6 NEVER recalc after hitting "GO". If you want to build back road maps and don't do the things I mentioned above, stand by for disappointment. There WILL BE times when the lady in the box will try to send up an exit ramp and then down an on ramp when all you need to do is go straight. That is the map has bad data. That's life with maps. Since almost all GPS maps come from two sources, NavTech and Atlas, you will have problems from time to time. It ain't perfect but it ain't useless either.
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