Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 201

Thread: How to improve the MOA forum.

  1. #106
    Still Wondering mika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Fly Over Land
    Posts
    10,574


    Thank you Greg for the proposal outline. I have tucked it away for reference on some other topics.

    The BMWs listed in the signature lines of many of the posters are older and out of warranty. How many times does a new member post that they are new to the MOA and their new to them BMW is a bike out of warranty. By nature and necessity the forum traffic is full of shade tree DIY mechanic sorts. As a result my belief it is not the segment of the MOA that would be the target audience for support, ideas of what is needed or wanted in such a position.

    I was struck by this bit in the middle of Greg?s earlier post.
    "I will leave you with this: this is fundamentally a volunteer membership driven club. At the end of the day it's the club the member's want either because of their involvement, or the lack thereof. Anyone can throw stones, but it takes work and thought to stack them together into something useful".

    Again I am neither pro or con with regard to the idea of a liaison. However, I am more than a little bit surprised that for all the talk, that when presented with an outline of how a proposal might be framed the first post after appears to be a lets fold up the tents and go home kind of post. If you can not deal and negotiate with a bunch of deluded masochists that gather together to discuss how to fix these German machines that break; how are you going to deal with the Germans that make them to sell to us?

    A rhetorical observation from a guy with Don Quixote as his avatar...Look a windmill...I must be off (in more ways than one)
    Pass the mustard and UP THE REVOLUTION!

    St. Paul Pioneer Press , Minneapolis Star Tribune

  2. #107
    BMW Rider
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    750
    Quote Originally Posted by mika View Post


    Thank you Greg for the proposal outline. I have tucked it away for reference on some other topics.

    The BMWs listed in the signature lines of many of the posters are older and out of warranty. How many times does a new member post that they are new to the MOA and their new to them BMW is a bike out of warranty. By nature and necessity the forum traffic is full of shade tree DIY mechanic sorts. As a result my belief it is not the segment of the MOA that would be the target audience for support, ideas of what is needed or wanted in such a position.

    I was struck by this bit in the middle of Greg?s earlier post.
    "I will leave you with this: this is fundamentally a volunteer membership driven club. At the end of the day it's the club the member's want either because of their involvement, or the lack thereof. Anyone can throw stones, but it takes work and thought to stack them together into something useful".

    Again I am neither pro or con with regard to the idea of a liaison. However, I am more than a little bit surprised that for all the talk, that when presented with an outline of how a proposal might be framed the first post after appears to be a lets fold up the tents and go home kind of post. If you can not deal and negotiate with a bunch of deluded masochists that gather together to discuss how to fix these German machines that break; how are you going to deal with the Germans that make them to sell to us?

    A rhetorical observation from a guy with Don Quixote as his avatar...Look a windmill...I must be off (in more ways than one)
    I think Greg has come out with two posts discussing various details although this 2nd one was done with far greater detail. And, both were written well. I don't think that alters the overall interest in an advocate however. IMO there seems to be little to no interest in this. I don't know who the "how are you..." comment is aimed at as I don't believe anyone has stepped up to the plate for that particular position.

    I still think if you could amass a thousand or two email and Facebook postings aimed at BMW and did this consistently, politely and forcefully you just might be able to change the mind of BMW. But I admit I am purely guessing.

  3. #108
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wilmington, NC
    Posts
    2,127
    I'd settle for a Consumer Reports type annual feature in ON listing reliability and known defects by model. While it would be nice if someone at BMW read it and did something useful, I wouldn't expect anything much- matrix euro companies never were build quality leaders and that won't change.

    I think many of us can write the lists off the top of our head for models we ride but they're not known to new BMW owners, not generally known for new models, and such lists might be helpful to prospective owners changing models.

    We continue to uncover new weaknesses even in discontinued models- for example the low mileage ball joint problems in wedge K-GTs recently noted. Some defects never seem to get corrected- the fpc issues and other fuel system design issues were never fully addressed on R 1200s and I'll bet I still see some of the obvious flaws still in place on the wetheads though I haven't examined one carefully yet. Fuel strips were a bad idea from the start and nothing has been done yet that is effective- and yes, a big compression twin running out of fuel at speed is a real safety hazard for riders who expect a gas gauge to work (I'm old school and don't care if my bike has a gauge or not)

    An issue being reported with every new model these days is either failure to have accessories available at launch or poor stocking of the parts channels- these issues are of interest to possible purchasers.

    Advocacy has many of the problems Greg noted but reporting info received does not. Leaves everone free to with it what they wish..

    The BMW car club takes a far less pollyanna type approach than MOA and more of that approach would be useful.

  4. #109
    #4869 DennisDarrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sugar Valley, Ga
    Posts
    1,110
    [QUOTE=mika;882936]

    Again I am neither pro or con with regard to the idea of a liaison. However, I am more than a little bit surprised that for all the talk, that when presented with an outline of how a proposal might be framed the first post after appears to be a lets fold up the tents and go home kind of post.

    I have been following this thread along and along from the beginning and I was actually thinking "Wow, perhaps they are gonna get their stuff together and actually get something valid and real accomplished." Then YOU, Greg, "Mr. Reality", put in a brief summary of how to actually put these thoughts together and how to present it. I laugh now as when I read it I said to myself that it was put up or shut up time. Low and behold that is what is happening.......The ombudsman idea is suddenly NOT needed nor necessary......

    IT IS NEEDED and for me, Greg, if I read correctly between the lines, that you are also asking someone to take the reins of the horse and lead it over to the water. Am afraid that this good idea, when faced with reality, is just a bit to much work or involvement for those that push so hard when conveying it is NEEDED.........God bless......Dennis

  5. #110
    Dixie, the land of cotton
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Memphis
    Posts
    257

    Good point PolarBear I agree with everything you said except....

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarbear View Post
    Simply said, we have always seen things wrong here in USA and improved on them if needed. Our best advocates are our fellow members sharing the know how, ins and outs of a FIX and never relying on a giant corp. to get it right. Some of our best engineers are product user based and thinkers are the very riders getting it done. The MOA is this to me, a family of fixers and solve everything folks. My best advocate is my fellow rider right alongside me and sharing, 40000 strong! Cant pick just one. "Keep it Simple, Stupid", is a slogan once used by generations before us. I LIKE. Eat well, ride safe and when it breaks, we can fix it. I too, think BMW is a pooper at times BUT still love'em in my garage...All the issues we come across in life and its our self reliance that rewards us the most. Randy
    Fixing something yourself does give you great satisfaction. I am not a trained mechanic but can set the valves, change the brake fluid, install new tires and brakes and of course change the oil myself on the GS. I have rebuilt many types of engines: cars, boats, lawn mowers, and do get great satisfaction doing it myself. But having to mess with my defective counterbalance and engine output seals that a total of six mechanics have tried to repair doesn't sound too fun to me. A total of 17 of those seals have been replaced. If the seals went bad from normal wear I would not think of asking BMW NA to pay for the repairs. Sometimes the seals last 3,000 miles and sometimes 50 miles. Paul Glaves could probably do the repair in 6 hours or less with one eye shut. I am no Paul Glaves.

    Lets change examples: say you went in for gall bladder surgery and the surgeon screwed up on your case and 1/3 of the cases he did that month. So now he has to open you up every six months for 6 years straight to stop a slow bleed. After 7 years he finally admits that he did something wrong the first time and the bleeding can never be stopped totally. He will have to open you back up a couple time a year to stop the bleeding. Would you just the that's fine doc, I don't mine the inconvenience and expense. Matter of fact I think I will do the surgery myself next time just to get the satisfaction of trying to fix your mistake.

  6. #111
    BMW Rider
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    750
    [QUOTE=DennisDarrow;882943]
    Quote Originally Posted by mika View Post


    Again I am neither pro or con with regard to the idea of a liaison. However, I am more than a little bit surprised that for all the talk, that when presented with an outline of how a proposal might be framed the first post after appears to be a lets fold up the tents and go home kind of post.

    I have been following this thread along and along from the beginning and I was actually thinking "Wow, perhaps they are gonna get their stuff together and actually get something valid and real accomplished." Then YOU, Greg, "Mr. Reality", put in a brief summary of how to actually put these thoughts together and how to present it. I laugh now as when I read it I said to myself that it was put up or shut up time. Low and behold that is what is happening.......The ombudsman idea is suddenly NOT needed nor necessary......

    IT IS NEEDED and for me, Greg, if I read correctly between the lines, that you are also asking someone to take the reins of the horse and lead it over to the water. Am afraid that this good idea, when faced with reality, is just a bit to much work or involvement for those that push so hard when conveying it is NEEDED.........God bless......Dennis
    This post is primarily aimed at Dennis Darrow, Greg and Mika.

    I'm not sure who the above criticism is aimed at but given some of my strong statements I may be one of the intended targets. Under that assumption let's move forward with a few comments and see where that leads. Along with a proposal to determine the level of interest within the club. Given my background and often stated belief the importance of doing what is "right" I do strongly believe we have a need for a consumer advocate when dealing with BMW NA. As much as I believe in profitability within this industry I also believe that a business has the obligation to do what is right when dealing with a customer. Mistakes are a given in 100% of every business on the planet. A wise business person will include the cost of those mistakes into the cost of doing business and price accordingly. Quite simply a business needs to be profitable enough to where it can afford to pay for its mistakes. Without making the cost too much of a burden on the customer base. Hopefully we all understand that concept. Warranty's are nothing more than pre-paid service agreements although cloaked in different terminology. Large corporations understand that and much of small business does not.

    ************************************************** ************************************************** *****************************************
    First, I would like to address a few of Greg's comments. Although I did not ask Greg for permission to repost his post #98 as found within this thread I'm going to assume he'll be OK with that so here goes:

    Greg Comment #1:
    I made the suggestion much earlier in this thread for those who thought they had a better idea to develop a proposal for the MOA Board. Now I see discussion about whether there is support for such a thing. It's not realistic to expect the Board to say they support something until there is a fairly well defined proposal to evaluate and respond to. Good ideas come from all different directions, and often a great idea comes from a not-so-great one that was sent back for rework. Again - if you want to see change - be part of it.

    Walker Response:
    This thread has gone on for a bit of time so I may be wrong here but I don't think it has been implied the Board needs to get involved at this point in time. At least from my point of view I was stating an organization of this nature should be involved in advocacy. There were a few folks who strongly disagreed. But this is not necessarily a Board matter at this point in time.

    Greg Comment #2:
    My personal suggestions - and these are personal and you are free to take them or leave them as you choose - would be to first decide if you are proposing a "mediator" or "advocate" role for the club. There is a world of difference, not the least of which is that advocacy requires complete validation of the plaintiff's claims and will remove the club from any hint of neutrality. However, it is an approach used by some organizations.

    Walker Response:
    Although I do not know the roots of this position we already have "mediator" individuals involved sporadically. I strongly lack confidence these folks have any sway over BMW decision making. I am unable to support that belief with proof however so YMMV here. Given the level of BMW arrogance I strongly believe you need an advocate. I am not confident this would alter NA's decision making but perhaps well thought out mass responses would have an effect. And, there is nothing wrong with trying to make effective change despite my confidence level. And, yes validation absolutely needs to be part of the equation. Along with the ability to objectively determine right from wrong. I don't care about the size of the company or potential legal issues. Right and wrong should not be be cloaked in gray. There are absolutes in life and morals and ethics need to be important factors in decision making.

    Greg Comment #3:
    Secondly, based on my experience, this must be a confidential process between the specific parties, and most certainly not conducted on forums or other social media. IMHO such things complete distort the process, harden positions, and reduce flexibility of the parties involved. However, some people like circuses and believe strongly in the power of consumers applying pressure through social media. Again - these are my personal suggestions - do as you will with your ideas.

    Walker Response:
    I would love to believe this. Having worked within a BMW dealership that generated approximately 4,000 repair orders a year I just don't see this to be a realistic way to right what is wrong. The level of arrogance contained within the walls of BMW NA is truly incredible. Most customers will have never experienced this therefore cannot comprehend what it is like to deal with NA on a daily basis. This is sorry to say but I believe from the bottom of my heart that BMW NA will need to be shamed in public before they consider changing their ways. I'm not confident that even public shaming will accomplish anything. But I do believe it will be a necessary tactic.

    In addition, these confidential arrangements are only done for one reason. And that is to hopefully avoid other customers finding out about a problem. It is the way a large corporation wants to handle its customer base and try to save face. Can we really say that is the "right" way to handle an issue? I personally think not. I've never been part of a large corporation. I imagine this organization contains a few heavy hitters that either own or run such large corporations. It would be valuable to hear their side of the story on such arrangements as I am only aware from a street level point of view and witness what some of these issues can do to a customer.

    Greg Comment #4:
    I will leave you with this: this is fundamentally a volunteer membership driven club. At the end of the day it's the club the member's want either because of their involvement, or the lack thereof. Anyone can throw stones, but it takes work and thought to stack them together into something useful.

    Walker Response:
    Well said and completely true. Is this something that members want? I have intentionally stated a number of times the fact that BMW has knowingly distributed faulty product (fuel strips). I don't believe we've had a single response to that statement. We have a major worldwide corporation located in New Jersey intentionally distributing faulty product. That doesn't raise eyebrows? We have a major worldwide corporation located in New Jersey who was fined over $3 million dollars for ignoring federal recall procedures 16 times; 15 of which were motorcycle-related. Yet no one responded within the forum.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/20...ty-violations/

    I love BMW motorcycles but I am appalled by their actions. This obviously bothers me. Does it not bother anyone else?

    End Greg Post #98/Walker commentary
    ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************************************

    I propose this: It will take a bit of thought and a few weeks to hammer out an advocacy concept. I work an approximate 60 hour week so there are time constraints within my life. I would be willing to put a proposed concept together but I feel strongly we need to determine the level of interest within the club. I have no idea how polls are started on the forum but I think it would be appropriate to start a poll in order to determine level of interest. If others agree I guess it would be appropriate for the powers that be to start a poll. A possible wording suggestion as follows:

    As an exploratory question, and therefore leaving out the all important details to be determined later are you as a BMW MOA member interested in the club having a consumer advocate to work with BMW NA when perceived issues arise?

    Or, something similar. Then a Yes or No.

    Let's see where this leads before we make further plans.

    Comments invited and appreciated. I do not like nor appreciate "Yes" people. I have no issues with someone telling me I'm an idiot but I want to hear the reasoning behind it. Hearing support is good; hearing negative is more valuable.

  7. #112
    Still Wondering mika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Fly Over Land
    Posts
    10,574
    Yes

    My post used some of the language of other posts but was not targeted at anyone specifically. It was targeted at the group of forum members that are often described as 'Loyal Opposition'. Over the years I have regularly found myself in that group which varies in makeup but can be described as advocating for some sort of change in the MOA and using the forum to fly trial balloons to vet, seek support and gain traction for these ideas.

    I have tried to make it clear that I can see value in the position and purpose, I see potential and potential problems, I can see something along the lines discussed here being a benefit to the changing nature of our membership and that while it is an idea I could get behind I am not interested in leading or being a part of the charge for.

    Greg's proposal format post can be interpreted in many ways apparently. I took it along the lines of a race marshal waving the green and yellow flag at the same time; green - we would entertain a proposal from membership and here is a suggested format, yellow - we want it in some sort of formal proposal format and will discuss it off line with the group putting a proposal forward. Race marshals may determine how to apply the rules of racing but it is the racers on the track that actually do the racing. If a member or group of members wants this position in some form they need to do the work of writing a proposal, submitting it to the Board and make the case for it.
    Pass the mustard and UP THE REVOLUTION!

    St. Paul Pioneer Press , Minneapolis Star Tribune

  8. #113
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Long gone
    Posts
    6,494
    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post





    Walker Response:
    I would love to believe this. Having worked within a BMW dealership that generated approximately 4,000 repair orders a year I just don't see this to be a realistic way to right what is wrong. The level of arrogance contained within the walls of BMW NA is truly incredible. Most customers will have never experienced this therefore cannot comprehend what it is like to deal with NA on a daily basis. This is sorry to say but I believe from the bottom of my heart that BMW NA will need to be shamed in public before they consider changing their ways. I'm not confident that even public shaming will accomplish anything. But I do believe it will be a necessary tactic.



    Walker Response:
    Well said and completely true. Is this something that members want? I have intentionally stated a number of times the fact that BMW has knowingly distributed faulty product (fuel strips). I don't believe we've had a single response to that statement. We have a major worldwide corporation located in New Jersey intentionally distributing faulty product. That doesn't raise eyebrows? We have a major worldwide corporation located in New Jersey who was fined over $3 million dollars for ignoring federal recall procedures 16 times; 15 of which were motorcycle-related. Yet no one responded within the forum.



    I love BMW motorcycles but I am appalled by their actions. This obviously bothers me. Does it not bother anyone else?




    Comments invited and appreciated. I do not like nor appreciate "Yes" people. I have no issues with someone telling me I'm an idiot but I want to hear the reasoning behind it. Hearing support is good; hearing negative is more valuable.
    Billy,

    Lengthy quote snipped to address one issue.

    Sorry, no Yes Man here. I may be the lone voice in the wilderness, but I do not think the MOA should have an advocacy role. From your own statements you doubt that anything would be accomplished that would be of benefit for the majority of members. It is not part of our reason for existing.

    If NA is arrogant towards their customers (after all dealers are their customers otherwise they would have only company stores or direct sales) why would one expect they would treat a customer advocate any differently? The recent and long history of the IP issues showed that they really don't give much value to their largest owners groups i.e. the CCA, the MOA and the RA.

    I recognize your strong feelings about the need to publicly chastise NA for their business decisions. If that is your wish, follow Greg's suggestion and start an online presence/forum where those who feel likewise can accomplish that objective.

    The MOA is not the vehicle to accomplish your goal.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  9. #114
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Fountain Hills AZ
    Posts
    908
    Quote Originally Posted by sibud View Post
    Billy,

    Lengthy quote snipped to address one issue.

    Sorry, no Yes Man here. I may be the lone voice in the wilderness, but I do not think the MOA should have an advocacy role. From your own statements you doubt that anything would be accomplished that would be of benefit for the majority of members. It is not part of our reason for existing.

    If NA is arrogant towards their customers (after all dealers are their customers otherwise they would have only company stores or direct sales) why would one expect they would treat a customer advocate any differently? The recent and long history of the IP issues showed that they really don't give much value to their largest owners groups i.e. the CCA, the MOA and the RA.

    I recognize your strong feelings about the need to publicly chastise NA for their business decisions. If that is your wish, follow Greg's suggestion and start an online presence/forum where those who feel likewise can accomplish that objective.

    The MOA is not the vehicle to accomplish your goal.
    And then you will always get what you get and the most insane part of this is the continuing support of a product through purchasing loyalty. I think Billy was right using the term masochist.

    May be the best revenge is competition. The Japanese forced american car manufacturers to pick up their game. If BMW loses sales, they will change their ways, if sales are stable or increase, they will believe what they do is right, which is a fallacy of sorts (post hoc ergo propter hoc), but they will believe it. While none of us can start a motorcycle company that could compete, there are other choices when buying. My advice to look elsewhere if you seek change. Anything else is co-dependent behavior that encourages them.
    My Motorrad
    BMWMOA 162849 | BMWRA 41335 | VROC 8109-R | VBA 19

  10. #115
    BMW Rider
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    750
    Quote Originally Posted by mika View Post
    ..................... If a member or group of members wants this position in some form they need to do the work of writing a proposal, submitting it to the Board and make the case for it.
    Mika, IMO the Board is secondary. First you need to see if there is worthwhile interest among the membership. The membership should be controlling the Board, not vice versa. Should that interest be present you then submit a concept to the membership. Should interest remain you then submit to the Board to get things rolling. Should there be no interest amongst the membership why present anything to the Board? We all have other things to do in life.

  11. #116
    BMW Rider
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    750
    Quote Originally Posted by sibud View Post
    Billy,

    Lengthy quote snipped to address one issue.

    Sorry, no Yes Man here. I may be the lone voice in the wilderness, but I do not think the MOA should have an advocacy role. From your own statements you doubt that anything would be accomplished that would be of benefit for the majority of members. It is not part of our reason for existing.

    If NA is arrogant towards their customers (after all dealers are their customers otherwise they would have only company stores or direct sales) why would one expect they would treat a customer advocate any differently? The recent and long history of the IP issues showed that they really don't give much value to their largest owners groups i.e. the CCA, the MOA and the RA.

    I recognize your strong feelings about the need to publicly chastise NA for their business decisions. If that is your wish, follow Greg's suggestion and start an online presence/forum where those who feel likewise can accomplish that objective.

    The MOA is not the vehicle to accomplish your goal.
    I strongly disagree and feel MOA is the perfect vehicle to get a mass message out to NA. We have the numbers if people are willing to participate. Email and Facebook tactics can and do work sometimes. A well executed social media revolt performed a number of times might perhaps be a game changer. If you don't try you end up with the same result as we have now.

    I respect your opinion more than you realize. That is exactly why no one including myself needs to be bringing up this issue repeatedly. That is why I recommended starting a poll to determine level of interest. Should their be no interest I need to shut my mouth.

  12. #117
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Long gone
    Posts
    6,494
    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    And then you will always get what you get and the most insane part of this is the continuing support of a product through purchasing loyalty. I think Billy was right using the term masochist.

    May be the best revenge is competition. The Japanese forced american car manufacturers to pick up their game. If BMW loses sales, they will change their ways, if sales are stable or increase, they will believe what they do is right, which is a fallacy of sorts (post hoc ergo propter hoc), but they will believe it. While none of us can start a motorcycle company that could compete, there are other choices when buying. My advice to look elsewhere if you seek change. Anything else is co-dependent behavior that encourages them.
    I'm happy with all of the BMW's that I've owned (five so far). I would like to get more of the same.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  13. #118
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Long gone
    Posts
    6,494
    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    I strongly disagree and feel MOA is the perfect vehicle to get a mass message out to NA. We have the numbers if people are willing to participate. Email and Facebook tactics can and do work sometimes. A well executed social media revolt performed a number of times might perhaps be a game changer. If you don't try you end up with the same result as we have now.

    I respect your opinion more than you realize. That is exactly why no one including myself needs to be bringing up this issue repeatedly. That is why I recommended starting a poll to determine level of interest. Should their be no interest I need to shut my mouth.
    I've always believed reasonable people can differ.

    Will wait to see what develops.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  14. #119
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Fountain Hills AZ
    Posts
    908
    Quote Originally Posted by sibud View Post
    I'm happy with all of the BMW's that I've owned (five so far). I would like to get more of the same.
    I meant collectively
    My Motorrad
    BMWMOA 162849 | BMWRA 41335 | VROC 8109-R | VBA 19

  15. #120
    BMW Rider
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    750
    Quote Originally Posted by sibud View Post
    I'm happy with all of the BMW's that I've owned (five so far). I would like to get more of the same.
    +1

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •