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Thread: How to improve the MOA forum.

  1. #76
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    I have zero lifetime experience with flex fuel so can't comment on it. I assume it goes bad and clogs up the works just like any other fuel. Am I wrong on this? I see fuel-damaged fuel pumps a number of times over the course of a year. Most motorcycles are toys to their owners. This is even true in the BMW world although it seems to a lessor degree. People buy these things and then just let them sit. And sit. And sit. They lose interest. They get scared. The wife wants nothing to do with it. It has no radio. It has no air conditioning. And, my personal customer-complaint favorites: It's too cold, it's too hot, it's raining.

    I say Man Up and ride the darn thing! You just might enjoy it!!
    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    Interesting comments from people that seem not to know what their talking about. Believe it or not folks I'm about to stick up for BMW here so pay attention.

    BMW NA, as with all OEM's, has a warranty policy which covers for defects. Not misuse. What's missing in the description of this problem is the cause of the fuel pump failure. Due to the warranty denial I am going to make an assumption. An assumption which may be incorrect but I'm working with a limited set of facts.

    The pump presumably needed to be replaced due to gasoline going bad over the course of time. As gasoline varnishes up it literally will begin to destroy the fuel pump. No two fuel pumps will be ruined in the same amount of time due to the variables involved. The OP on the other site conveniently left this out of the conversation completely. If this is the issue there is nothing BMW could have done to prevent the problem. This is not a defect and BMW NA has every right to deny the claim.

    The original OP is either unaware of standing gasoline issues or has chosen to ignore them and would prefer to put the blame on BMW. Should BMW teach people about the dangers to vehicle components when a vehicle sits too much? Maybe. If I were an OEM I would certainly bring up common scenarios that tend to cause problems. But having said that this is still not a defect therefore BMW would prefer not to give away their money.

    But all of the above is conjecture. Before anyone starts to form conclusions we need to know the facts as they are simply not present. It is far too easy to blame BMW for every little thing that arises.

    Please don't write in saying you've never heard of this occurring in such a "short" amount of time. Maybe you haven't. But that doesn't preclude the possibility of it happening. Owners will say many things in order to avoid paying for a repair. People that have been in dealerships for a number of years see many things that occur out of the norm that are not defects.

    Long story short: Maybe BMW NA +1, maybe not - we need more facts - we need the causal issue. Until then no one can say including me.

    I will try to come up with a picture of a fuel pump where an owner insisted it only sat for one year. If the owner is being truthful you might be quite surprised to see what this pump looks like. And, ethanol makes it worse due to incessant moisture issues.
    We don't know what happened with the pump and from the post, neither did BMW. Their decision was ex cathedra. Now, what seemed to make the biggest difference was the dealer. Bob's is a big dealer and they stood their ground. It worked for that guy.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    We don't know what happened with the pump and from the post, neither did BMW. Their decision was ex cathedra. Now, what seemed to make the biggest difference was the dealer. Bob's is a big dealer and they stood their ground. It worked for that guy.
    That is excellent news as it may imply my assumption was off base. That is great! Why would BMW put a customer through this if it wasn't due to fuel degradation? Oh yeah... what am I thinking... arrogance!! Hopefully I'm not pointing the finger too quick here. If so, I will offer full apologies.

  3. #78
    Certifiable Old Fart beemerdons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by espressoforyou View Post
    Your comment that "this thread has run it's course" is your opinion and only that. No problem with you expressing your opinion but don't try and limit others from voicing theirs.

    This thread evidently has some interest based on the over 2000 views and 60 plus posts. Free flowing positive discussions are always a good thing.
    +10, Triple Gunny!
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    We don't know what happened with the pump and from the post, neither did BMW. Their decision was ex cathedra. Now, what seemed to make the biggest difference was the dealer. Bob's is a big dealer and they stood their ground. It worked for that guy.
    Again, your mind exceeds mine by use of this term: ex cathedra

    Hopefully I can say this within the forum as I was brought up in the Catholic church but bailed out long ago. Catholics are taught the Pope is infallible. Of course, the Bible states no one is perfect, not one except the Lord. Just as the Catholic church feels it is perfect so does BMW. Isn't it strange how we attempt to fool ourselves.

  5. #80
    Just me rad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    Oops... sorry. Didn't know.

    Hey Billy, that's ok, it was many years ago.

    I said I was done here, however I do want to end this on a positive note. I will tell you why I trust Rob's opinion so well. Back in the day he was the guru of all that was BMW. He authored many of the classic BMW tech articles, his most famous was zero-zero. I don't even know how many roles he played in the BMWMOA organization, I just know he was well respected. I had the pleasure of communicating with him a few times regarding my Oil Head and attending a seminar he and Steve did in Death Valley many years ago.

    I wish you guys the best of luck in trying to come up with a way to empower folks dealing with the BMW corporate.

    rad

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by rad View Post
    Hey Billy, that's ok, it was many years ago.

    I said I was done here, however I do want to end this on a positive note. I will tell you why I trust Rob's opinion so well. Back in the day he was the guru of all that was BMW. He authored many of the classic BMW tech articles, his most famous was zero-zero. I don't even know how many roles he played in the BMWMOA organization, I just know he was well respected. I had the pleasure of communicating with him a few times regarding my Oil Head and attending a seminar he and Steve did in Death Valley many years ago.

    I wish you guys the best of luck in trying to come up with a way to empower folks dealing with the BMW corporate.

    rad
    It's great to have those "go to" people within an organization. Far too many people just lay back expecting for things to just "happen". But I guess that's where the 80/20 rule comes in to play. Life takes work and effort. You would just hope there are people that actually care about other people. Not easy for many.

  7. #82
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    Again, your mind exceeds mine by use of this term: ex cathedra

    Hopefully I can say this within the forum as I was brought up in the Catholic church but bailed out long ago. Catholics are taught the Pope is infallible. Of course, the Bible states no one is perfect, not one except the Lord. Just as the Catholic church feels it is perfect so does BMW. Isn't it strange how we attempt to fool ourselves.
    It means they did it from their seat of authority, more or less, just waved their wand and made it so because they could.

    The only perfect people are in cemeteries. YMMV.
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  8. #83
    Still Wondering mika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    You are correct in what you say. IMO it is not clear whether the club even wants a person of this nature to be associated with the club. People seem to get really side tracked and get to imagining money being siphoned from the coffers for advocacy expense to use an example. Until there seems to be a recognition of the fact that something of this nature MAY provide a benefit is there a point to drawing up plans for the infrastructure of such a position? Is that the cart before the horse?
    My post was not specifically aimed at you but let me respond to your points.

    It is not a question of the club wanting a person of this nature. It has supported the position of liaison in the past. This thread started with a post by a member asking for a stronger response from the club and included you in the process.

    "I agree with Billy Walker and many other forum members that the MOA needs a more powerful voice to be able to influence BMW NA to take a second look at problems when they occur".

    In the process of the discussion to this point at least one member has expressed some movement in this direction as part of the membership renewal decision process for them. So no I don?t think it is putting the cart before the horse. The two of them have been running down the road for years.

    I am not concerned about money being siphoned from the coffers of the MOA. There are people and systems in place to deal with and manage that.

    I am far more concerned about the expenditure of volunteer effort, personal capital and membership hopes/fears raised while this group figures out how they want to chase the horse and cart if they ever figure out a way to capture them what they will do with it.
    Pass the mustard and UP THE REVOLUTION!

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  9. #84
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mika View Post
    My post was not specifically aimed at you but let me respond to your points.

    It is not a question of the club wanting a person of this nature. It has supported the position of liaison in the past. This thread started with a post by a member asking for a stronger response from the club and included you in the process.

    "I agree with Billy Walker and many other forum members that the MOA needs a more powerful voice to be able to influence BMW NA to take a second look at problems when they occur".

    In the process of the discussion to this point at least one member has expressed some movement in this direction as part of the membership renewal decision process for them. So no I don?t think it is putting the cart before the horse. The two of them have been running down the road for years.

    I am not concerned about money being siphoned from the coffers of the MOA. There are people and systems in place to deal with and manage that.

    I am far more concerned about the expenditure of volunteer effort, personal capital and membership hopes/fears raised while this group figures out how they want to chase the horse and cart if they ever figure out a way to capture them what they will do with it.
    Having an adversarial relationship with BMW serves no one, but neither does a master/servant paradigm. I would hope that both sides could have a relationship that is more open and adult as opposed to one that seems to have a little fear on our side of the fence. It doesn't have to be that way, but both parties have to be willing too and it requires some frank discussion in private. May be that has happened, I don't know. At this point the horse is not only dead, but is way past the expiration date. In retrospect, it didn't have to come to this and I say that to all parties.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    Having an adversarial relationship with BMW serves no one, but neither does a master/servant paradigm. I would hope that both sides could have a relationship that is more open and adult as opposed to one that seems to have a little fear on our side of the fence. It doesn't have to be that way, but both parties have to be willing too and it requires some frank discussion in private. May be that has happened, I don't know. At this point the horse is not only dead, but is way past the expiration date. In retrospect, it didn't have to come to this and I say that to all parties.
    It need not be adversarial at all. But frank discussion does need to be involved and you need an OEM that can admit failures when appropriate.

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    Wow, six pages plus of discussion that still hasn't gotten down to the bottom line. You can have all the ombudsmen you want, but in the end the only way to effect a change in a manufacturer's quality control, warranty support, or customer treatment is to vote with your wallet and your feet. The changes that have taken place in domestic auto producers of the last two decades, when US buyers were tripping over themselves to buy import cars, is a case in point.

    I have a good friend whose wedge-k was repurchased by BMW after sitting unused in the dealer's service bay for nearly a year after a cam chain jump that destroyed the top end. He's currently riding a Ducati Multstrada, purchased in part using his proceeds from BMW. Oh yes, and the dealership in question is now closed. Vote with your wallet, vote with your feet, ride your new non-BMW machine back to your dealer and politely make sure he understands why you're now on a different marque and make sure he passes the message upchannel. When dealer orders drop off NA and AG will want to know why, hopefully they will understand that it's NOT THE ECONOMY, STUPID and address the issues.

    BMWMOA is not the organization or vehicle to fix any customer support/warranty issues, and the OP should have done his voting years ago by trading the vehicle off-- if you're going to take a $$ hit the sooner you take it the sooner you will get over it and move on.

    All IMHO of course.

    Best,

    GTRider
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    1983 R80ST -- 1988 K100RS (r.i.p.) -- 1995 R1100RSL (gone, never forgotten) -- 2004 K1200GT w/Hannigan S/C -- 2010 K1300GT

  12. #87
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider View Post
    Wow, six pages plus of discussion that still hasn't gotten down to the bottom line. You can have all the ombudsmen you want, but in the end the only way to effect a change in a manufacturer's quality control, warranty support, or customer treatment is to vote with your wallet and your feet. The changes that have taken place in domestic auto producers of the last two decades, when US buyers were tripping over themselves to buy import cars, is a case in point.

    I have a good friend whose wedge-k was repurchased by BMW after sitting unused in the dealer's service bay for nearly a year after a cam chain jump that destroyed the top end. He's currently riding a Ducati Multstrada, purchased in part using his proceeds from BMW. Oh yes, and the dealership in question is now closed. Vote with your wallet, vote with your feet, ride your new non-BMW machine back to your dealer and politely make sure he understands why you're now on a different marque and make sure he passes the message upchannel. When dealer orders drop off NA and AG will want to know why, hopefully they will understand that it's NOT THE ECONOMY, STUPID and address the issues.

    BMWMOA is not the organization or vehicle to fix any customer support/warranty issues, and the OP should have done his voting years ago by trading the vehicle off-- if you're going to take a $$ hit the sooner you take it the sooner you will get over it and move on.

    All IMHO of course.

    Best,

    GTRider
    And like HD, customer loyalty keeps the brand alive and in this case, in spite of the mistakes. I wonder how other brands stack up in terms of customer service? It's almost impossible to measure, but it would be interesting it wasn't. I have the feeling the dealer can make a big difference in how things go.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    And like HD, customer loyalty keeps the brand alive and in this case, in spite of the mistakes. I wonder how other brands stack up in terms of customer service? It's almost impossible to measure, but it would be interesting it wasn't. I have the feeling the dealer can make a big difference in how things go.
    If you flatter the customer by telling them how discerning they are for purchasing your exclusive brand and the customer chooses to believe that, you can defer on customer service as something needed by "lesser" brands. This may work at the local and national level, until you exhaust the supply of gullible customers.
    Last edited by 36654; 06-13-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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  14. #89
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    If you flatter the customer by telling them how discerning they are for purchasing your exclusive brand and customer chooses to believe that, you can defer on customer service as something needed by "lesser" brands. This works at the local and national level, until you exhaust the supply of gullible customers.
    There have been times that some dealers will go to bat for the customer and even eat a repair. Not all dealers do this. The dealer in question with the K1600 was Bob's. May be they value their reputation with the customers. I don't know. I think at this point I am beyond thinking or believing I own something particularly exclusive. A little different, yes.
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    Bmwna

    Rule #1 BMWNA NEVER ADMITS FAULT-They didn't punch you in the nose, you hit them in the fist with your face.
    Rule #2 Follow the great 20th century African Hunter Robert Ruark's advice and USE ENOUGH GUN
    Rule #3 Re #2 in the 70's BMW M30 car engines regularly cracked heads because BMW was using thermal reactors rather than cats and this occurred regularly; in this case, enough gun took the form of a class action lawsuit to slap the arrogance out of BMWNA and get customers cars fixed

    Finally,

    I absolutely disagree that this should not be a club issue. The BMW Car Club of America has advocates who indeed do intercede on behalf of their members with dealers and BMWNA. Those of us who vacationed in the "Tropical Paradise" (AKA Viet Nam) learned one lesson if nothing else; UNIT LOYALTY!!! If we don't take care of our own, what good are we?

    Regards,

    Will

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