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Thread: How to improve the MOA forum.

  1. #1
    Dixie, the land of cotton
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    How to improve the MOA forum.

    I agree with Billy Walker and many other forum members that the MOA needs a more powerful voice to be able to influence BMW NA to take a second look at problems when they occur.

    As an example: I talked to the MOA staff 5 years ago about a problem with my bike and the only solution they had was to put me in touch with the MOA liaison person. I think his name was Jim. Jim was very nice and was kind enough to make a few phone calls for me but Jim admitted that he does not have any power to get anything done.

    So the MOA forum moderators had no clue how to contact BMW. There helpful information was to give me the customer service 1-800 number. Trust me, the customer service reps are very nice but are nothing but talking heads.

    Being a moderator has to require a lot of time and I appreciate them being willing to donate it. The forum would not work without their help.

    It nothing else good comes out of my saga I hope that the forum will demand that the MOA get some "balls" and find out how to make BMW NA pay attention.

    One of the moderators told me that some members were getting upset over reading about the problems with my bike and some negative replies that were being posted on my threads. I told him that I did not realize that this was a girl-scout forum. Pro and con discussions can be productive and none of the negative post hurt my feelings.

    All right, I am off my soap box and will not be posting any new threads on this subject.

    Thanks for all the positive replies and suggestions. I hope you have a good summer.

  2. #2
    Administrator 20774's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by espressoforyou View Post
    and will not be posting any new threads on this subject.
    Well, you're already posting a new thread! You posted this exact same info in the other thread.

    I'm not sure how what you posted provides for a path to improve the MOA forum??

    Others who have been with the MOA for longer can chime in, but the MOA is not an arm of BMW Motorrad...we're just a motorcycle club, and while we're the largest BMW club, we're just a club to them. It has not been the MOA's mission to advocate specifically for the membership. It sounds like to me that you're suggesting something like what AMA does when it comes to motorcyclist's rights and their attempts to influence legistation, etc. Again, that's not at all what the MOA wants to do.

    I wonder if BMW Motorrad even frequents this forum? I suspect some of them might even be members...no clue...but I doubt they really have time of us on our forum. From all that has been going on with your other thread, it seems the best way to speak directly to BMW Motorrad is to use their forum, ie, Facebook. At least that is their communication tool...it is certainly not the MOA forum. Facebook will be much more worldwide than we are here on this forum. For my money, that would be the way to go.
    Kurt -- Forum Administrator ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
    mine-ineye-deatheah-pielayah-jooa-kalayus. oolah-minane-hay-meeriah-kal-oyus-algay-a-thaykin', buddy!

  3. #3
    2011 R1200RT ka5ysy's Avatar
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    And to add to Kurt's post:

    I have been amused at all the bandwidth you have burned up about this when BMWMOA, nor any of its members, has any contractual relationship with BMWNA to advocate for anything, nor do they have any legal responsibility or authority to act on your behalf. Frankly, you proper action YEARS ago was to contact an attorney and have them deal with your issues and give you proper advise. I am not certain what the statute of limitations for this type action is in your state, but there is a very good chance that you are beyond any possibility of legal action at this point due solely to your inaction.

    It is unreasonable for you to continue to waste time whining about this in multiple threads which duplicate the same information, when nobody can help you and probably have given up reading your posts on this. Please get yourself some actual legal advise, and take it.
    Doug, 2011 R1200RT Polar Metallic
    MSF #127350 NAUI #36288

  4. #4
    Dances With Sheep GREGFEELER's Avatar
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    Another view

    Quote Originally Posted by espressoforyou View Post
    I agree with Billy Walker and many other forum members that the MOA needs a more powerful voice to be able to influence BMW NA to take a second look at problems when they occur.

    As an example: I talked to the MOA staff 5 years ago about a problem with my bike and the only solution they had was to put me in touch with the MOA liaison person. I think his name was Jim. Jim was very nice and was kind enough to make a few phone calls for me but Jim admitted that he does not have any power to get anything done.

    So the MOA forum moderators had no clue how to contact BMW. There helpful information was to give me the customer service 1-800 number. Trust me, the customer service reps are very nice but are nothing but talking heads.

    Being a moderator has to require a lot of time and I appreciate them being willing to donate it. The forum would not work without their help.

    It nothing else good comes out of my saga I hope that the forum will demand that the MOA get some "balls" and find out how to make BMW NA pay attention.

    One of the moderators told me that some members were getting upset over reading about the problems with my bike and some negative replies that were being posted on my threads. I told him that I did not realize that this was a girl-scout forum. Pro and con discussions can be productive and none of the negative post hurt my feelings.

    All right, I am off my soap box and will not be posting any new threads on this subject.

    Thanks for all the positive replies and suggestions. I hope you have a good summer.

    I have been aware of your posts and this topic for some time, so perhaps my comments might help clarify a few points, and to be clear, my comments do not reflect in any way my views of the validity or lack thereof of your complaints.

    The BMW MOA is not the right organization to represent the interests of, or become an advocate for, large numbers of aggrieved owners for several reasons. First, a large number of our members would not want us to take on such a role because it would be in conflict with the often expressed desire by our membership that we work "more closely" with BMW in order to provide more "inside" information, access to promotions and discounts, and more presence by BMW at our events. Secondly, and much more to the point here, such a task is just beyond the scope and purpose of the club. Any group that wants to make their case with a larger international company has to do their homework and have a vast body of hard empirical evidence documenting severe and excessive harm (financial or safety) because of that company's products or services. Documented cases have to be collected and validated and then a statistical basis established to (hopefully) prove some contention. Then negotiations would be opened with the company, and if not resolved by dialog or mediation, then the claimants would have to be prepared for a potentially long and expensive legal battle. Anything less would debase the credibility of their resolve right from the beginning, and greatly reduce their chances for a (to them) satisfactory resolution. Like it or not, in our current litigious society companies believe they must defend themselves against product defect claims to avoid punishing jury awards.

    Clearly - at least to me and every Board of Directors I've served on for the last ten years - such a mission is way outside our mandate as a motorcycle club who's purpose is to build a community of BMW riders. Additionally, to spend club money and resources would be highly divisive since many would not support it. It's for exactly this reasons that we have a formal policy that the MOA is apolitical. We do not get involved in any "motorcycle rights" fight - not because we don't think defending our right to ride is not important. It is - and in my personal opinion highly important. But, there are other organizations specifically dedicated to that fight and those who believe in that mission can and should join them and support their work.

    All of this is not to say that the MOA over the years has not had private discussions with officials at BMW Motorrad USA and BMW AG in Germany about customer satisfaction issues. We have, and on some occasions believe some good was accomplished. But, our goal was not some wholesale admission by BMW of a claimed defect with their products.

    There are a lot of venues for someone to build interest in their cause, and especially so in this age when a web site costs a few dollars a month. However, it would seem very important to identify those options quickly and pursue them rather than, as in this case, rail against the MOA for not doing something for which is is not equipped.
    Greg Feeler
    BMW MOA Director & Ambassador
    1972 R75/5, 1990 K75, 1990 K1, 1992 K75S, 2003 K1200RS

  5. #5
    Dixie, the land of cotton
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    Well said Greg and I appreciate you taking the time to write such a good response.

    I agree with every thing you said.

  6. #6
    Dances With Sheep GREGFEELER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by espressoforyou View Post
    I agree with every thing you said.
    In that case, my I make a suggestion? Perhaps you will get further with your quest if you start your own email list on YahooGroups. It's free, it would be single topic focused, and *you* can set your own rules, rather than butting heads here. Posting such a link here to encourage those interested in your situation to go there might actually encourage their commentary in a way. You might get a lot further than you think. I've used that approach in the past myself and had excellent results. Good luck.
    Greg Feeler
    BMW MOA Director & Ambassador
    1972 R75/5, 1990 K75, 1990 K1, 1992 K75S, 2003 K1200RS

  7. #7
    Dixie, the land of cotton
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    Thanks Greg, the forum is a very useful tool for BMW riders

    Good point, I have enjoyed the forum and it has been very helpful with past minor issues with my bike and provides a wealth of knowledge for everyday issues. Great group of guys and girls.

    I apologize for any negative comments about the forum or moderators. I appreciate the time and work they put in everyday.

    Just a little frustrated with BMW NA. Having direct BMW NA contact information will help others not go through years of trying to get to the decision makers at BMW NA.

    This is the contact information you need to reach BMW Motorrad NA;
    Anthony Cavanaugh is TEAM Leader in charge of pre-litigation and vehicle buy-back. His email is Anthony.cavanaugh@bmwna.com His direct line is 201-263-8215


    I suggest the forum make this information available. Also if a member cannot get satisfaction with the dealer or with the 1-800 customer service people then I strongly suggest the member post their problem(stated in a nice manner) on the BMW Motorrad facebook site and ask for help. Within 24 hours after my first post asking for help I received a call from Anthony Cavanaugh at BMW NA.

    Other emails that might come in handy.


    CEO Ludwig Willisch at ludwig.willisch@bmwna.com
    Vice President Hans Blesse at Hans.Blesse@bmwna.com

    When in doubt contact a lemon lawyer, that gets BMW?s attention.

    Thanks again for your suggestions.

    Randy

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GREGFEELER View Post
    I have been aware of your posts and this topic for some time, so perhaps my comments might help clarify a few points, and to be clear, my comments do not reflect in any way my views of the validity or lack thereof of your complaints.

    The BMW MOA is not the right organization to represent the interests of, or become an advocate for, large numbers of aggrieved owners for several reasons. First, a large number of our members would not want us to take on such a role because it would be in conflict with the often expressed desire by our membership that we work "more closely" with BMW in order to provide more "inside" information, access to promotions and discounts, and more presence by BMW at our events. Secondly, and much more to the point here, such a task is just beyond the scope and purpose of the club. Any group that wants to make their case with a larger international company has to do their homework and have a vast body of hard empirical evidence documenting severe and excessive harm (financial or safety) because of that company's products or services. Documented cases have to be collected and validated and then a statistical basis established to (hopefully) prove some contention. Then negotiations would be opened with the company, and if not resolved by dialog or mediation, then the claimants would have to be prepared for a potentially long and expensive legal battle. Anything less would debase the credibility of their resolve right from the beginning, and greatly reduce their chances for a (to them) satisfactory resolution. Like it or not, in our current litigious society companies believe they must defend themselves against product defect claims to avoid punishing jury awards.

    Clearly - at least to me and every Board of Directors I've served on for the last ten years - such a mission is way outside our mandate as a motorcycle club who's purpose is to build a community of BMW riders. Additionally, to spend club money and resources would be highly divisive since many would not support it. It's for exactly this reasons that we have a formal policy that the MOA is apolitical. We do not get involved in any "motorcycle rights" fight - not because we don't think defending our right to ride is not important. It is - and in my personal opinion highly important. But, there are other organizations specifically dedicated to that fight and those who believe in that mission can and should join them and support their work.

    All of this is not to say that the MOA over the years has not had private discussions with officials at BMW Motorrad USA and BMW AG in Germany about customer satisfaction issues. We have, and on some occasions believe some good was accomplished. But, our goal was not some wholesale admission by BMW of a claimed defect with their products.

    There are a lot of venues for someone to build interest in their cause, and especially so in this age when a web site costs a few dollars a month. However, it would seem very important to identify those options quickly and pursue them rather than, as in this case, rail against the MOA for not doing something for which is is not equipped.
    Greg,

    Thanks for your well thought out and correct answer. I note that he has added more posts even tho many have expressed boredom with the ongoing silliness.
    Such a shame. If he had used 1/10 of this energy in the correct way this problem would have been solved years ago. Very sad to see someone without a clue going on and on/even worse the few who side with him and rant on and on about BMW.
    Marty Hill
    12 GS black/Boxer Cup Replika

    ride till you can't

  9. #9
    TravelsWithBarley.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by espressoforyou View Post

    All right, I am off my soap box and will not be posting any new threads on this subject.
    Thank you. Please mean it this time.

    Pete
    '07 R1200GS for solo rides
    '10 R1200GSA with Hannigan dual sport sidecar for rides with Barley

  10. #10
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    Very well said Greg. We are a club and not a political organization. The legal issues and it's civil liability ramifications of an organized movement to attempt to "force" BMWNA into a particular action is not, im sure something the MOA wants to expose themselves to.

    I see a similarity with regard to the condo association that I am president of and they way some people see the MOA. Some new owners mistakenly think that just because they have a personal problem with their own unit that the condo association is a body that is there to take care of it for them. No, it is not like living in a hotel, we are not their personal front desk, THEY are all owners and if they have an idea for something to get done, they should take the initiative and get it done and not wait for some others in an unpaid position to do it for them.

    George

  11. #11
    Proud Veteran SteveAikens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by espressoforyou View Post
    Just a little frustrated with BMW NA.
    Then you should point your frustration toward the right organization. The BMW MOA is NOT the voice, not the ear of BMW NA. BMW MOA, as noted several times in the threads you posted, is as Greg states - it's a paid membership CLUB. We do understand there are problems with the cars and motorcycles produced by BMW NA. We also understand there are [fortunately in the minority] significant issues with resolving problems - as with ANY vehicle manufacturer - between BMW NA and the consumer. Many of us will do what we can to help with communication between those with problems and BMW NA.

    That said, this forum belongs to the membership. It is not to be used as a personal platform for constantly hammering BMW NA for someones issues. Got a problem? Want to post it? Go right ahead and open a thread on the problem - ONCE. Don't keep posting the same complaint over and over - it gets old damn fast.

    I don't post here a lot. I used to but am tired of others taking my threads off topic to hammer ****BMW NA**** and seeing multiple threads and numerous posts against ****BMW NA**** over that same thing.

    I've been around a long time. Note my MOA number is 6218. This club, this forum, is just as much mine as it is yours. Please have the courtesy of not making visiting or posting here unpleasant for others.

    You should continue to take your problem to ****BMW NA**** in my opinion, and in this case, I damn sure support you. It just doesn't belong here multiple times.

    All this is my opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of anyone else, BMW MOA or BMW NA.......
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  12. #12
    Certifiable Old Fart beemerdons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by espressoforyou View Post
    I agree with every thing you said.
    espressoforyou, I'm going to share some information with you that I was supposed to keep close to my vest, but my issue with BMWNA and BMWAG is old news now.

    Movers and Shakers who got my deer strike damaged K1600GT back to me after 5 solid months of BMWNA and BMWAG acting like morons were Dean Lear, Will Guyan and Kent Cook. The Common Denominator of all three of these Gentlemen, and I do mean Real BMW Gentlemen, is that they are Officers in BMW Riders Association.

    http://www.bmwra.org If you are looking for a BMW Club which will go to bat for its members, then you need to become a member of BMW Riders Association for this.

    Please do not get me wrong, I love being a BMW MOA Member since 1979 and I will die a BMW MOA Member. BMWRA has the guts to deal with BMW for its members!
    Don Stanley; aka Chuy Medina "El Burrito Ballerina"
    BMWMOA #24810; www.azbeemers.org/forum #89

  13. #13
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beemerdons View Post
    espressoforyou, I'm going to share some information with you that I was supposed to keep close to my vest, but my issue with BMWNA and BMWAG is old news now.

    Movers and Shakers who got my deer strike damaged K1600GT back to me after 5 solid months of BMWNA and BMWAG acting like morons were Dean Lear, Will Guyan and Kent Cook. The Common Denominator of all three of these Gentlemen, and I do mean Real BMW Gentlemen, is that they are Officers in BMW Riders Association.

    http://www.bmwra.org If you are looking for a BMW Club which will go to bat for its members, then you need to become a member of BMW Riders Association for this.

    Please do not get me wrong, I love being a BMW MOA Member since 1979 and I will die a BMW MOA Member. BMWRA has the guts to deal with BMW for its members!
    There's no free lunch as they say and if you want a seat at the master's table you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you. That's what I get out of this exchange.
    My Motorrad
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveAikens View Post
    Then you should point your frustration toward the right organization. The BMW MOA is NOT the voice, not the ear of BMW NA. BMW MOA, as noted several times in the threads you posted, is as Greg states - it's a paid membership CLUB. We do understand there are problems with the cars and motorcycles produced by BMW NA. We also understand there are [fortunately in the minority] significant issues with resolving problems - as with ANY vehicle manufacturer - between BMW NA and the consumer. Many of us will do what we can to help with communication between those with problems and BMW NA.

    That said, this forum belongs to the membership. It is not to be used as a personal platform for constantly hammering BMW NA for someones issues. Got a problem? Want to post it? Go right ahead and open a thread on the problem - ONCE. Don't keep posting the same complaint over and over - it gets old damn fast.

    I don't post here a lot. I used to but am tired of others taking my threads off topic to hammer ****BMW NA**** and seeing multiple threads and numerous posts against ****BMW NA**** over that same thing.

    I've been around a long time. Note my MOA number is 6218. This club, this forum, is just as much mine as it is yours. Please have the courtesy of not making visiting or posting here unpleasant for others.

    You should continue to take your problem to ****BMW NA**** in my opinion, and in this case, I damn sure support you. It just doesn't belong here multiple times.

    All this is my opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of anyone else, BMW MOA or BMW NA.......
    Steve, your post here is a good one. I don't think it's anyone's intention to alter the basic premise of the club. The repetitive posts do get old and I have been a part of those posts from time to time. There is no reason why we can't have a consumer advocate and maintain the premise of the club. IMO it would be a benefit for people with serious issues to post in some type of advocacy thread rather then the current format. The complaints go on here because they feel they have been seriously wronged and there is no other venting mechanism. Possibly you are in a position where spending $15 to $30k for a motorcycle is not a major expenditure but I can assure you to many BMW motorcycle customers it is exactly that. Our numbers have the potential to provide an additional club benefit for proven issues with BMW product. That sounds like a positive to me.

    Having worked with NA for a number of years I can assure you other OEM's do not handle their issues in the manner of BMW NA. I have never experienced such horrendous treatment from an OEM. Where there are proven issues that arise the number of MOA members writing in may just have the power to make things better. I feel that is caring for your fellow members as opposed to burying one's head in the sand. You cannot go up against NA as a single individual and win almost ever. To put it simply the club has the numbers to effect change.

    In closing, I do realize these type's of post's bother you and that is not my intent. There seems to be very few who agree with my point of view so perhaps I'm off base here. Maybe most don't really care. I don't know what it is but I will officially stop bringing the concept up as it really seems to offend some folks for whatever reason.

  15. #15
    Administrator 20774's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GREGFEELER View Post
    Additionally, to spend club money and resources would be highly divisive since many would not support it.
    This said a lot to me. We're a paid membership club and I think, by far and away, the number of members that might have issues with their product or BMW NA is very, very small. To take the funds from the vast majority and use it in a way that will only affect a small number of people is not really fair.

    As has been pointed out, there are other ways to address these problems or concerns.
    Kurt -- Forum Administrator ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
    mine-ineye-deatheah-pielayah-jooa-kalayus. oolah-minane-hay-meeriah-kal-oyus-algay-a-thaykin', buddy!

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