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Thread: 98 R1100R Two Mode running

  1. #1
    RD'nNH&AZ rdhudson's Avatar
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    98 R1100R Two Mode running

    I have posted on this bike before. My new to me R1100R starts fine, runs a minute to 4 minutes then cr@ps out, by that I mean it goes into a mode where it emits smoke, soots the plugs, drops out ignition completely, then surges forward when throttle is opened. It may stop this and run good for 10 minutes then it returns, it is not rideable. The change in ride-ability is like a switch being thrown.
    I have had suggestions: Oil temp sensor failure (no- Thanks rxcrider for the loaner), sync (no -spot on), valve adj (no -spot on), not fuel filter (replaced), not bad gas (removed and rinsed out), not hoses, not injectors, not hall sensors, not timing, not wiring (visual inspection and wiggle test), probably not wiring connectors (unplugged and replugged), new spark plugs, clean air filter and not anything two separately working former BMW master techs can find. BTW both have donated their time as they can't get it going, but I am gifting them a reward for effort.
    Tuesday it goes into the local BMW dealer. The service manager asked if I had done a leak down test! I doubt this is the reason as when it runs it is strong, smooth, and accelerates like a gazelle in front of a lion. I guess I have to let them do one at $85/hr. I hope their diagnostic machine can find the problem.
    Untested is the Engine Management Unit and the Throttle Position Sensor. I have both coming via ebay ($69 and $40- wow so cheap!) as the combined price new is $1600 (MaxBMW fiche). It looks like the EMU is an easy swop out, but the TPS would need to be set with the diagnostic machine and it will be in the shop anyway.
    Could the Evaporative Emissions canister be the cause of this? I have read the Canisterectomy postings on .ADV forums and I am considering removal as I am desperate. I'll probably wait until the dealer has a go.
    The bike is at one of the former tech's shop now. I haven't checked: grounding suggestion. It only has 6K on it and nothing outside of the bike looks even remotely warn, no chafed wires, no scuffs, no corrosion, it seems perfect.
    I even called the 2nd owner and introduced myself to ask about its rid-ability in the past (it got a great review).
    Anyone been through anything like this? What does the dealer's diagnostic machine tell? What am I missing here?
    Ralph
    2002 F650GS, 1998 R1100R 75th anniversary edition, 1983 R80RT (just sold), 1959 R60 (in restoration), Honda CT90
    If you must make a mistake, make a new one each time.

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    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    If your canister were loaded with fuel, when the Motronic opened the solenoid so that the engine could breath in the collected vapors, it would suck in a load of gasoline. This happened to me when my in-tank vent hoses started leaking. It was so bad that the engine stopped.

    A very easy way to check this is to remove the connector from the solenoid which is on the frame, left-hand side, just below the seat. You can't miss it. It has to 1/4" hoses and a two-wire fuel-injector-like connector.

  3. #3
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    You didn't mention the fuel pump. When the engine stops running turn the key off. Then listen for the fuel pump when you turn the key back on. If you do not hear the fuel pump at the very least you have a fuel pump-related issue. If you do hear the fuel pump when you turn the key back on will it start at that point? I assume so based on your comments.

    As to the surging when you say it is surging forward are you stating the engine picks up rpm? A fuel pump that begins to starve for fuel will typically lean out and you will get an increase in engine rpm. Has the bike sat for any length of time with fuel in it? This is a fairly common scenario in a fuel pump failure and I'm guessing here but it's probably fair to say I've seen dozens of BMW fuel pumps replaced over the course of time. Not saying this is the issue but am saying verify fuel pump condition should be included in your diagnostic path given all the other items you have checked out. Considerably more so if the bike has sat with fuel in it.

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    RD'nNH&AZ rdhudson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    You didn't mention the fuel pump. When the engine stops running turn the key off. Then listen for the fuel pump when you turn the key back on. If you do not hear the fuel pump at the very least you have a fuel pump-related issue. If you do hear the fuel pump when you turn the key back on will it start at that point? I assume so based on your comments. (Yes it does)

    As to the surging when you say it is surging forward are you stating the engine picks up rpm? (It will only run if the throttle is opened and then it leaps forward like a saturn 4... soon to drop out as though the ignition was turned off... more throttle and repeat.) A fuel pump that begins to starve for fuel will typically lean out and you will get an increase in engine rpm. Has the bike sat for any length of time with fuel in it? (Yes 15 years old with 6000 miles so it must have. Plus 14 winters in New England) This is a fairly common scenario in a fuel pump failure and I'm guessing here but it's probably fair to say I've seen dozens of BMW fuel pumps replaced over the course of time. Not saying this is the issue but am saying verify fuel pump condition should be included in your diagnostic path given all the other items you have checked out. Considerably more so if the bike has sat with fuel in it.
    Thanks, Yes the pump does run momentarily when key-on. It doesn't seem to lean out but shuts off abruptly. Both techs reported that when it goes into unrunable mode it is very rich leading me towards the canister being purged of gas into the throttle bodies as Roger suggests possible. I was surprised to hear that it can be so bad the bike quits. That too seems to make the purging of the canister a suspect. I'll take the suggestion and unplug the servo valve.
    Thanks, -Ralph
    2002 F650GS, 1998 R1100R 75th anniversary edition, 1983 R80RT (just sold), 1959 R60 (in restoration), Honda CT90
    If you must make a mistake, make a new one each time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhudson View Post
    Thanks, Yes the pump does run momentarily when key-on. It doesn't seem to lean out but shuts off abruptly. Both techs reported that when it goes into unrunable mode it is very rich leading me towards the canister being purged of gas into the throttle bodies as Roger suggests possible. I was surprised to hear that it can be so bad the bike quits. That too seems to make the purging of the canister a suspect. I'll take the suggestion and unplug the servo valve.
    Thanks, -Ralph
    If the bike has sat for 15 years with gas in it the fuel pump is as close to guaranteed to be shot as possible. I would highly recommend pulling the pump for inspection. I think you mentioned replacing the fuel filter now I think of it... are you referring to the internal filter? You would have seen the pump at that point. I could be wrong but the likelihood of a pump surviving 15 years in fuel that was just sitting may be darn near impossible.

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    MOA #24991 Pauls1150's Avatar
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    If you're handy with a wrench, the TPS really doesn't need any special diagnostic machine to set it up - just a good digital voltmeter. See the "Zero=Zero" articles in the Oilheads tech section at http://www.ibmwr.org/

    The guy you spoke to may not have been the real service "manager", but a service "writer"...

  7. #7
    RD'nNH&AZ rdhudson's Avatar
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    Yes and no

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls1150 View Post
    If you're handy with a wrench, the TPS really doesn't need any special diagnostic machine to set it up - just a good digital voltmeter. See the "Zero=Zero" articles in the Oilheads tech section at http://www.ibmwr.org/

    The guy you spoke to may not have been the real service "manager", but a service "writer"...
    Joe Warner, Service: General Manager MaxBMW- I think he is the real thing

    The bike was ridden (perhaps every year as far as I know) but is 15 years old. I have the service records and ownership/mileage records and it was ridden most if not all summers. I still take seriously the suggestion the pump may be toast. I have an automotive fuel pressure tester- I need to make an adapter to plug it in my fuel lines (Q-disconnects?) Thanks for the reminder of the Zero=Zero work of Rob Lentini. I wanted to get the bike on the BMW diagnostic machine to know if the rheostat in the TPS is in spec. and Rob did not give the high ohm reading nor any angle vs resistance data. I bought a replacement TPS on ebay to be able to compare... It has not arrived but when it does, if both readout similar resistance/ranges and mine is smoothly wiping up the range then I can cross that off my list. Thanks Billy -I did replace the internal filter and inspected the hoses (appeared like new inside and out), and I found no crud, water, gelled fuel or anything else in there.
    Great suggestions, collective experience and knowledge is why we do this.
    Ralph
    2002 F650GS, 1998 R1100R 75th anniversary edition, 1983 R80RT (just sold), 1959 R60 (in restoration), Honda CT90
    If you must make a mistake, make a new one each time.

  8. #8
    Registered User m_stock10506's Avatar
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    Try pulling the Motronic Coding Plug (it's in the fusebox). This will cause the bike to run in default mode and it will ignore the O2 sensor input. This problem could be a bad O2 sensor.
    Michael Stock, Trinity, NC
    R1100RT, R100, R60/6

  9. #9
    Left Coast Rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by m_stock10506 View Post
    This problem could be a bad O2 sensor.
    This could be a nugget of info. Had a 1200S which exhibited similar symptoms. Turned out it was a broken O2 sensor wire which was intermittently connecting/disconnecting.

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    Boy I hate to weigh in with something you already said you eliminated...
    But I think you have to go back to the hall effect sensors.

    I had the exact same issue. I eliminated everything I could and was left with the coil, the hall effect sensors, and the motronic itself.

    When I priced the motronic I said I'd rather buy another whole motorcycle, and the sensor plate was $300, so I replaced the coil for what, $65 maybe.

    Anyway the coils are basically bricks of epoxy and I don't know what you'd have to do to one to make one fail.
    So I have one cheap if you want it.
    It wasn't the coil.

    I took the sensor plate off and downloaded the white paper from the manufacturer for expected values, it was all in spec.
    But it couldn't be anything else. I borrowed a heat gun and heated it. I wiggled it. I knocked it around.
    But I could not prove that was the issue. Both sensors seemed to work just fine on the bench.

    I figured it was either the sensors or the motronic, might as well shell for the sensors first.

    That fixed it.

    So, I believe the sensors themselves are ok, but the wiring of the plate to the wiring harness had failed.
    It could be that I could re-do the wiring on the original plate and have another working spare.

    The behavior is that it starts and runs cold but as it gets hot the motronic forgets to fire more and more often, and it seems to get worse over time and worse in crappy weather (just the time you want a catastrophic failure). At the end mine would start and run maybe 3 or 4 minutes and just die with no spark. You start fooling with it, it cools down, and suddenly it will start again.

    I have some documents that detail the hall effect sensor diagnostics and replacement - if you are super-handy you could theoretically replace just the sensors and wiring for 40 or 50 bucks instead of buying the BMW part.
    They are too big to attach, I could email them to you or something.

  11. #11
    RD'nNH&AZ rdhudson's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm fixed

    I got a call last night that the Indie exBMW tech with my bike had it running well. I'll get back here with a full disclosure in a day or two when I know more. Seems he went to a different motronic coding plug (CCP), reset the EMU, and changed out the exhaust! Plugged Cat? I know the reset EMU may revert a bit and the problem might rear its ugly head. Pulling fuze 5 didn't help me earlier. I should have a few days to ride it before my scheduled appointment at MAX's. At this point I don't know more. It's raining here so when I pick it up today (on my trailer as I don't have a ride there), I'll get a chance to see if the Hall sensor failed and follow on some other leads.
    2002 F650GS, 1998 R1100R 75th anniversary edition, 1983 R80RT (just sold), 1959 R60 (in restoration), Honda CT90
    If you must make a mistake, make a new one each time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhudson View Post
    I got a call last night that the Indie exBMW tech with my bike had it running well. I'll get back here with a full disclosure in a day or two when I know more. Seems he went to a different motronic coding plug (CCP), reset the EMU, and changed out the exhaust! Plugged Cat? I know the reset EMU may revert a bit and the problem might rear its ugly head. Pulling fuze 5 didn't help me earlier. I should have a few days to ride it before my scheduled appointment at MAX's. At this point I don't know more. It's raining here so when I pick it up today (on my trailer as I don't have a ride there), I'll get a chance to see if the Hall sensor failed and follow on some other leads.
    Outstanding! Hope this odyssey comes to an end for you, and yes please let us know what the problem was.

  13. #13
    RD'nNH&AZ rdhudson's Avatar
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    Picked my bike up this morning.

    The ex-tech did the following and perhaps more as he had it for 9 days which were 50-65 degrees and rain! The bike was not next in line at his shop so 5 of those days were scheduling/weekend. I did miss it but probably would not have ridden much even if I had it back in a day. Here is what I know was done:

    TPS adjusted... It was .405 volts and adjusted to .395 volts. (not quite on but would that be the issue?)
    Replaced Yellow coding plug with Pink (which MaxBMW fiche lists as correct for R1100R). (again probably not a big enough change to explain the fix)
    Swapped out exhaust for a another catalyst equipped one. (This surprised me as the old one seemed to be exhausting but it could cause a lot of issues)
    Checked the Bowden cables (are 1998 cables teflon lined?)
    Adjusted the fast idle lever- not really a choke
    Tested bike with spare O2 sensor installed (no difference=O2 sensor is good)
    Pulled the tank and "checked the wiring and connectors under there"
    Checked air temp sensor, hall effect sensor(s), timing and in the tech's words "everything else"
    Reset the EMU, unplugged fuse #5 for 5 minutes (perhaps not necessary as coding plugs are read on each startup)
    Things that had previously been done (see above):
    Valve adjustment (very good anyway-one slight adjustment)
    TB Sync
    Oil Temperature sensor swap
    Fuel tank checked, filter replaced, hoses checked and found good, new gas.
    -At this point it acts like a normal bike (thank goodness) starts right up, idles high or low consistent with fast idle, rideable in seconds, good acceleration and best at 3,500 rpm and above. It seems to me like it may be a bit rich-running but I do not have a CO tester and have little experience with this age bike so I may be wrong, and this is based on 15 minutes of riding so far.
    My conclusions:
    -I don't think anything we have done by itself could explain the drastic change. Perhaps a wiggled wire or a bad connection was corrected inadvertently. The tech reported the coding plug and reset was the thing which brought the bike the big change and the exhaust change was to improve the response as the bike was being "held back" by something which he reported the exhaust change fixed. BTW he was very fair in his bill with time and parts. I would have spent as much at the dealer in about 3 1/3 hours time no saying their cost with parts.
    -I plan to do the following:
    Remove the still suspect evaporative canister and reroute the hoses to allow drainage of water and vapor.
    Take a good long, mid-high speed ride and check the plugs for richness.
    Reset the motronic 2.2 before the ride and then read out the stored codes after the ride.
    Check/renew the chassis/engine grounds.
    -I hope this repair holds. Thanks to all who replied and to the sites that have info on the coding plugs, TPS zero=zero, hall sensor repair, evaporative canister removal, motronic 2.2, and others.

    I'd appreciate feedback.
    2002 F650GS, 1998 R1100R 75th anniversary edition, 1983 R80RT (just sold), 1959 R60 (in restoration), Honda CT90
    If you must make a mistake, make a new one each time.

  14. #14
    MOA #24991 Pauls1150's Avatar
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    TPS - your voltage is now in spec; spec is 0.360 to 0.400, so the ideal target would be .380 (provided the initial Zero is now also correct). 0.405 wouldn't cause the initial symptoms described; I've seen worse in bikes that ran, well, reasonably.

    Curious about the exhaust; some contamination or rust possibly? Note that some oils have a statement on the bottle to the effect of "Not for extended use with catalytic converters" (high ZDDP). Leaded gas will damage them too, but I don't know how much it takes to do so.

    My earlier comment regarding the service manager was due to the suggestion of a leak-down test: I don't think that a repeatable issue with the described symptoms would be caused by something that such a test could help diagnose, unless maybe a little piece of exhaust valve had decided to weld itself to the seat (which is one of the gotchas with too much alcohol in the gas).

    Glad it's up - Long may it run!

  15. #15
    RD'nNH&AZ rdhudson's Avatar
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    I wonder too

    The issue with the exhaust was actually two. 1. I mentioned the Tech thought the bike was being being held back by the exhaust and 2. The exhaust was also heating up unusually hot when the catalytic converter would have gotten going. The stainless around the cat can area was scorched more than the one he put on. ? It was nice and clean otherwise and no external nor internal rust could be seen as far as I could see inside. The bike is certainly old enough so ZDDP would have been in the oil but with only 6000 miles it probably couldn't have ruined it yet. I'm guessing the cat was full of soot from the rich running and the stop-and-lurch riding. Perhaps an hour on the slab at 5000 rpm would have cured both issues? I came to the same conclusion as you on the request for the leak down test.. I'm guessing Joe was searching for a possibility that could be tested however remote. Ethanol should be consumed after aging in charred oak barrels not burned in a vehicle! Thanks for the perspective on the TPS.
    Ralph
    2002 F650GS, 1998 R1100R 75th anniversary edition, 1983 R80RT (just sold), 1959 R60 (in restoration), Honda CT90
    If you must make a mistake, make a new one each time.

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