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Thread: DIY vs Warranty

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewbacca View Post
    What he said. I've had both a Kawasaki area rep and the Triumph USA rep try to intimidate me with that "void your warranty" business. It doesn't fly, BUT being on good relations with a good dealership sure helps grease the skids.
    I have never heard a rep make that type of statement. Are you sure you were speaking with an OEM rep?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    This statement is correct: both customers and dealers can make mistakes. There is no business in the world that is perfect. Customers are not perfect either. Theoretically the dealer tech has a considerably higher skill set than most customers however but there are no guarantee's. The original post is factually correct... frequently a DIY individual will perform the repair wrong.
    Part of the problem is the incentive plan. Mechanics are encouraged to make time. So if a job is 12 hours according to the book and a tech can do it in 6 hours, the tech is onto the next paying job while the first customer is still paying for the full 12 hours. In return, a mechanic usually gets a cut. This can lead to sloppy work. I had this happen on a ABS cable replacement. The fuel lines were sticking out by the steering stem. If it wasn't warranty, I would have gone back and complained. I fixed it myself and then blogged about it...I guess I won't be going back to that dealer...
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponch1 View Post
    Part of the problem is the incentive plan. Mechanics are encouraged to make time. So if a job is 12 hours according to the book and a tech can do it in 6 hours, the tech is onto the next paying job while the first customer is still paying for the full 12 hours. In return, a mechanic usually gets a cut. This can lead to sloppy work. I had this happen on a ABS cable replacement. The fuel lines were sticking out by the steering stem. If it wasn't warranty, I would have gone back and complained. I fixed it myself and then blogged about it...I guess I won't be going back to that dealer...
    Ponch, if flat rate is 12 hours a tech would never be able to pull it off in 6 hours. If enough tech's were able to do that the OEM's would be altering the flat rate down to somewhere around 5 hours give or take.

    It would be best if you complained to the dealer. There is no such thing as the perfect dealership technician. Many customers seem to have difficulty with that. The problem is the statement is 100% true. Every business in the world makes mistakes although it is common for customers to cycle amongst dealerships over perceived wrongs. Dealer A loses a customer over a mistake and then gains a customer from Dealer C because the Dealer C customer will no longer deal with Dealer C over a problem that occurred there. I realize many customers don't relate to that but an honest dealership wants to know about its errors. If customers don't say anything the dealership most of the time will never know an error occurred.

    Think about this: if a dealership turns out 5,000 repair orders a year it is virtually impossible to have zero mistakes. Impossible. Human beings simply are not that talented. What is important is how a dealer goes about correcting its mistakes.

    Now it is possible the tech doesn't care enough about his job but it is important the dealership know about that type of attitude. It is also possible the technician simply made a mistake. Another possibility is the tech may need further training or possibly need to purchase additional tools. Or, all of the above. None of this will be discovered if you don't say anything. It hurts you, it hurts the dealership and it hurts other customers if it is anything other than a simple mistake.

    In my opinion here is the best way to handle the issue. Most importantly you want to know if you're dealing with an ethical dealership. So you go back and don't display anger. Explain the bike was just worked on and you feel something is wrong with whatever and if they could please look at it. And then say nothing more. Observe how the dealer is handling the problem. Are they trying to stonewall you without reviewing the problem? Or, are they getting a tech to take a look at what's going on? Sometimes it will be an additional legitimate problem but usually if an issue crops up immediately after being worked on it's typically repair-related. But if you deny the dealer the opportunity to show his/her true colors how will you know you're dealing with someone who actually cares or not? To put a positive spin on it you might actually be able to get an idea of how ethical the dealer is especially when dealing with an unknown dealership.

    Just look at your place of employment. Every single fellow employee and the owner have made mistakes within that business from time to time. As have you. A dealership is no different. How the store takes care of the problem is key in whether you feel you want to continue to deal with them or not. Obviously this would not apply to a business and/or an individual who are busy with mistakes day after day.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponch1 View Post
    Part of the problem is the incentive plan. Mechanics are encouraged to make time. So if a job is 12 hours according to the book and a tech can do it in 6 hours, the tech is onto the next paying job while the first customer is still paying for the full 12 hours. In return, a mechanic usually gets a cut. This can lead to sloppy work. I had this happen on a ABS cable replacement. The fuel lines were sticking out by the steering stem. If it wasn't warranty, I would have gone back and complained. I fixed it myself and then blogged about it...I guess I won't be going back to that dealer...
    We know all people make mistakes. Let me ask you a question on the blogging if I may. When you make a mistake at your place of employment do you and your employer want the opportunity to correct the mistake or would you prefer people going around bad mouthing you over the mistake? Every one of us on this forum can relate to that. I have never understood the need to blog about mistakes unless a business is making mistakes day in and day out proving the business is incapable of being run correctly. Does that make any sense?

  5. #35
    Registered User chewbacca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    If you are dealing with a dealership that is stating you need to do it through them you really need to find another dealer. Moss/Magnuson has been in effect for decades and only a deceitful dealer would be trying to play that game.
    You are absolutely correct. HOWEVER; I have had a Kawasaki Area rep in PA tell me directly that I should never work on a bike myself, "it will void your warranty." When Triumphs were catching on fire with bad quick disconnects on fuel lines, Peter Corleo? the Customer Service grand poobah for Triumph USA stated to me that only a certified Triumph mechanic can replace those fittings (and implied anything else) or it would void the warranty. When he said that, there was not certification program for Triumph mechanics. With both the Triumph and the Kawasaki, I had a great dealer, Kissell's in State College, PA, who went to bat for me every time I had an issue. That included times when I did the work. There is almost no substitute for having a good dealer.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    Ponch, if flat rate is 12 hours a tech would never be able to pull it off in 6 hours. If enough tech's were able to do that the OEM's would be altering the flat rate down to somewhere around 5 hours give or take.

    It would be best if you complained to the dealer. There is no such thing as the perfect dealership technician. Many customers seem to have difficulty with that. The problem is the statement is 100% true. Every business in the world makes mistakes although it is common for customers to cycle amongst dealerships over perceived wrongs. Dealer A loses a customer over a mistake and then gains a customer from Dealer C because the Dealer C customer will no longer deal with Dealer C over a problem that occurred there. I realize many customers don't relate to that but an honest dealership wants to know about its errors. If customers don't say anything the dealership most of the time will never know an error occurred.

    Think about this: if a dealership turns out 5,000 repair orders a year it is virtually impossible to have zero mistakes. Impossible. Human beings simply are not that talented. What is important is how a dealer goes about correcting its mistakes.

    Now it is possible the tech doesn't care enough about his job but it is important the dealership know about that type of attitude. It is also possible the technician simply made a mistake. Another possibility is the tech may need further training or possibly need to purchase additional tools. Or, all of the above. None of this will be discovered if you don't say anything. It hurts you, it hurts the dealership and it hurts other customers if it is anything other than a simple mistake.

    In my opinion here is the best way to handle the issue. Most importantly you want to know if you're dealing with an ethical dealership. So you go back and don't display anger. Explain the bike was just worked on and you feel something is wrong with whatever and if they could please look at it. And then say nothing more. Observe how the dealer is handling the problem. Are they trying to stonewall you without reviewing the problem? Or, are they getting a tech to take a look at what's going on? Sometimes it will be an additional legitimate problem but usually if an issue crops up immediately after being worked on it's typically repair-related. But if you deny the dealer the opportunity to show his/her true colors how will you know you're dealing with someone who actually cares or not? To put a positive spin on it you might actually be able to get an idea of how ethical the dealer is especially when dealing with an unknown dealership.

    Just look at your place of employment. Every single fellow employee and the owner have made mistakes within that business from time to time. As have you. A dealership is no different. How the store takes care of the problem is key in whether you feel you want to continue to deal with them or not. Obviously this would not apply to a business and/or an individual who are busy with mistakes day after day.
    There's a local independent shop owner that says he can do an LT clutch in half the book time, which I think is 12 hours. He also said when he worked at a local BMW dealer, he made 6 figures because he could make time. So, according to him, he can do a 12 hour job in 6 hours. A dealer might love this.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    We know all people make mistakes. Let me ask you a question on the blogging if I may. When you make a mistake at your place of employment do you and your employer want the opportunity to correct the mistake or would you prefer people going around bad mouthing you over the mistake? Every one of us on this forum can relate to that. I have never understood the need to blog about mistakes unless a business is making mistakes day in and day out proving the business is incapable of being run correctly. Does that make any sense?
    There's a big difference in what I get paid and the rate the dealership charges. The expectations are a lot higher at the rates they charge and the consequences are more as well as it could be a safety issue. As far as blogging, it's my prerogative. If he did a great job, he could have gotten kudos too. it goes both ways.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewbacca View Post
    You are absolutely correct. HOWEVER; I have had a Kawasaki Area rep in PA tell me directly that I should never work on a bike myself, "it will void your warranty." When Triumphs were catching on fire with bad quick disconnects on fuel lines, Peter Corleo? the Customer Service grand poobah for Triumph USA stated to me that only a certified Triumph mechanic can replace those fittings (and implied anything else) or it would void the warranty. When he said that, there was not certification program for Triumph mechanics. With both the Triumph and the Kawasaki, I had a great dealer, Kissell's in State College, PA, who went to bat for me every time I had an issue. That included times when I did the work. There is almost no substitute for having a good dealer.
    If the quick disconnects were a recall that changes the circumstances - because recalls are always safety-related federal law requires the dealership to perform the repair at no charge to the customer. I am not positive on the accuracy of the following statement but I don't believe a customer is allowed to perform a recall. I have certainly never allowed it. With what amounts to a federal mandate a dealer would be foolish to not be in compliance. There has to be certainty, or as much certainty as there is with any work performed, that it was done correctly and theoretically that means the dealer has the appropriate skill sets within the store to do the job.

    As far as the Kawasaki dealer? He needs to be fired.

  9. #39
    Registered User chewbacca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    If the quick disconnects were a recall that changes the circumstances - because recalls are always safety-related federal law requires the dealership to perform the repair at no charge to the customer. I am not positive on the accuracy of the following statement but I don't believe a customer is allowed to perform a recall. I have certainly never allowed it. With what amounts to a federal mandate a dealer would be foolish to not be in compliance. There has to be certainty, or as much certainty as there is with any work performed, that it was done correctly and theoretically that means the dealer has the appropriate skill sets within the store to do the job.

    As far as the Kawasaki dealer? He needs to be fired.
    I believe that you are correct about the recall being done by the shop. Triumph tried in every way possible to claim there was no problem despite pic's of several bikes that caught fire. When I was talking to them the recall was not in effect. When Triumph did go through with the recall, most guys who knew anything about it had already done the fix themselves to all metal connectors that had an automatic cut off in them. Triumph did a cheap fix providing a connector without the cut off and still plastic. When you used the recall QD you would get a spray of gas without the cut off. Not a good thing in a pressurized system. That Big K guy was a saint compared to Corleo. He well known among long time Triumph riders.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponch1 View Post
    There's a local independent shop owner that says he can do an LT clutch in half the book time, which I think is 12 hours. He also said when he worked at a local BMW dealer, he made 6 figures because he could make time. So, according to him, he can do a 12 hour job in 6 hours. A dealer might love this.
    It is true you may have some exceptional individuals that can do incredible things. But you can't base repair times on exceptional individuals as they are few and far between and most of the time unobtainable. Repair times need to be based on average technicians. Granted, not the ideal but how else would you handle it?

    In addition, if you have a tech that is that fast and can also produce the same level of quality, impossible for most folks, he deserves to get paid the 12 hours. Why? Why be that fast and that good in order to make less? It doesn't equate.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponch1 View Post
    There's a big difference in what I get paid and the rate the dealership charges. The expectations are a lot higher at the rates they charge and the consequences are more as well as it could be a safety issue. As far as blogging, it's my prerogative. If he did a great job, he could have gotten kudos too. it goes both ways.
    100% correct in everything you said here. The problem is you're dealing with imperfect humans. You will never be able to stamp out all problems.

    Given the power of the internet I believe bloggers have a responsibility to put out quality information. You happened to have a faulty repair. So you blogged about it. If every single dealer makes mistakes and every single dealer has negative comments about them just who are you supposed to deal with? People have an absolute right to blog. However, when you blog you are now the news source. With that should come the self-imposed responsibility of providing valid and accurate information. Would you want NBC just spouting off about different things without verifying sources and accuracy? You just hope the blog has been handled in a responsible intelligent manner. Part of that includes the dealer response and how they handled the error. This usually does not occur. What happens is you hear one-side of the story. If you're beginning to conduct business with a different dealer how are you verifying they have never committed a mistake?

    I'm sorry but I need to stand by my original comments as I believe them to be fair to both parties. The offending dealer needs to know about its mistakes. An ethical store will work to ensure future work hopefully doesn't include the exact same error by the same tech. Either through further training, a technician attitude adjustment or by the loss of employment. Very difficult to know about customer issues if the customer chooses to remain silent. Sounds like a reasonable stance to take and might prevent a customer from getting hurt in the future.

    How does your employer handle mistakes?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewbacca View Post
    I believe that you are correct about the recall being done by the shop. Triumph tried in every way possible to claim there was no problem despite pic's of several bikes that caught fire. When I was talking to them the recall was not in effect. When Triumph did go through with the recall, most guys who knew anything about it had already done the fix themselves to all metal connectors that had an automatic cut off in them. Triumph did a cheap fix providing a connector without the cut off and still plastic. When you used the recall QD you would get a spray of gas without the cut off. Not a good thing in a pressurized system. That Big K guy was a saint compared to Corleo. He well known among long time Triumph riders.
    Sad to say recall issues can take time to come to the surface. Between the fed's and the OEM it can take months sometimes. I've never been involved with the fed's or recall R&D so I can't comment on the hurdles involved.

  13. #43
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    Hey "Billy", thanks for some very astute comments r.e., dealer maintenance & repairs. 1st, you might want to give us some tidbits for your profile-always nice to put at least a small "face" on others.
    As a retired guy that was a tech in the past, I will add this to your comments(which are spot on): many/most dealers maintain that distance between the techs and "John Q. Public" that results in an insurmountable space for even those amongst us that actually have tech knowledge/experience & the result can be, in spite of honest dealings in a lack of real communication. It's a hard nut to crack too because we all know the guy in the shop is trying to make a living back there. Another common factor is the service writers are often lacking in tech knowledge themselves being a "sort of" go between.
    Here's looking forward to more of your valuable input here,welcome!
    "If I had my life to live over, I'd dare to make more mistakes next time...I'd relax,I'd limber up... I would take fewer things seriously...take more chances... take more trips...climb more mountains...swim more rivers...eat more ice cream." Jorge Luis Borges at age 85.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kantuckid View Post
    Hey "Billy", thanks for some very astute comments r.e., dealer maintenance & repairs. 1st, you might want to give us some tidbits for your profile-always nice to put at least a small "face" on others.
    As a retired guy that was a tech in the past, I will add this to your comments(which are spot on): many/most dealers maintain that distance between the techs and "John Q. Public" that results in an insurmountable space for even those amongst us that actually have tech knowledge/experience & the result can be, in spite of honest dealings in a lack of real communication. It's a hard nut to crack too because we all know the guy in the shop is trying to make a living back there. Another common factor is the service writers are often lacking in tech knowledge themselves being a "sort of" go between.
    Here's looking forward to more of your valuable input here,welcome!
    Excellent comments and many dealers can be difficult to work with although that is not really different than the rest of the world. People tend to forget where they came from and most certainly forget where the very food on their table comes from; i.e. the customer feeds and clothes us not the dealer principal. Apparently there's something wrong with doing just what's right and that is true of dealer principals, employees and customers. It's called the human condition.

  15. #45
    Registered User marcopolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98lee View Post
    Sick,

    That is the very source on which I based my previous statement:

    "The best idea would be to get the list from the service manager at the dealership where you bought/plan on having your warranty work done. That way there is no disagreement as to what should have been done. Several of those official looking online lists are completely missing some of the most critical known maintenance items (ie. early K bike final drive spline lube). If the guy that is making the decision on your warranty knows he is the guy that gave you the list of what to maintain, you should have no problem. If you get a list off the internet, they have room to say that it was the wrong or not current list."

    If you had used those lists to service an early Kbike, your final drive splines would have an early demise. Just because it's on a dealers website and says BMW on it does not mean it is the latest approved version with all the latest service bulletins and updates. Check with whichever dealer you buy the bike from and/or whichever dealer you would be taking any warranty issues to to make sure that those lists are complete. Periodically check with them to find out if there have been any updates or service bulletins.




    Just to underscore the point about getting the most up-to-date maintenance schedule from the dealer, if you follow the link posted earlier in this thread to A&S Cycles and click on the link for the R1200RT 20,000 km schedule, you'll find that it's a version that calls for the generator belt to be replaced every 60,000 km. That schedule on their website was superceded a while back. The maintenance interval for the generator belt is now every 40,000 km, or every six years. That's just one simple example of things you find on the net, even on BMW dealer websites, not necessarily being up to date.
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