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Thread: Third Recall for New Motor GS

  1. #31
    AZrider
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    H2o

    test rode it today at 70mph hit the end of the handlebar with hand hard- no head shake It is very stable
    R1200WGS 2013

  2. #32
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40624 View Post
    test rode it today at 70mph hit the end of the handlebar with hand hard- no head shake It is very stable
    How was the giddyup?
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponch1 View Post
    How was the giddyup?
    It is quick feels faster then my K1300GT for passing and quick accer. Think it is due to lighter weight and the throttle grip is 1/4 on to full vs GT 1/3 to full on no hesitation it is there
    R1200WGS 2013

  4. #34
    smross44
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    In Route

    I just ordered a '13 GS 1200 with the touring package. It is still in the inspection department in Berlin then on a ship. I have been a firm beliver in waiting a year on a new product. I waited until '12 to buy a new Ford diesel. Redesigned for in '10 for '11. I sold my '06 GS so now I am chomping at the bit for spring is in the air.
    I do not mind a few kinks for I know BMW will take care of them. I am however concerned about the front end coming apart at 70 mph....that would not be good. This form is making me think twice....but I am a firm beleiver in moving Foward.

    Sean Ross

  5. #35
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    Wait and See

    Quote Originally Posted by dwestly View Post
    This is why I no longer buy first year models. I'm perfectly content with my 2012 GS Rallye and will wait until they get all the waterbugs flushed out...or maybe I'll just keep the Rallye.
    Plus one on that, tired of being a BMW crash test Dummy.

    I also have the 2012 Rally and quite like it, most issues with the old GS sorted out by now just got back from a 5,000 mile trip and love the bike.

    Look forward to hearing reports on the new one though.


    Dave

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
    When bikes are tested, they were built with perfect parts by the best of the best. They accelerate the testing as much as possible. Many many things are found you never hear about. Then they source parts. Sometimes things slip thru. It can be as simple as tolerance an oil hole is specified at 1MM+-.2 But 1.2mm or .8MM causes a problem. Maybe the development department machines cam bores one way, and the vendor did them another, causing a problem even though they met specs. They test the bikes every day. So they do not discover that the fuel pump will stick when it sits a month. Or an additive in American car washes causes problems with switches. Suppose carbon gets harder when it sits, and builds up, causing detonation and the engine is destroyed. The wonderful space age plastic will crumble in 10 years. Stuff fails when exposed too vapor off the engine even though it is no were near fuel. Maybe you park outside, then later start up and put in garage, 30 seconds running and it will not start the next day. Yes all these things have happened in the real world and caused expensive recalls and hurt reputations. The carbon thing put OMC out of business. Cam bores in the OHC vette years back. More than one company caught by fuel pump and car wash things.

    These are the things that testing will not uncover unless you test for many years, and put out obsolete products. It happens to everyone putting out state of the art equipment

    Transportation testing is hard. It gets worse when all the older experienced guys get golden handshakes. Not an excuse, just the way it is.

    Rod
    Nice concept for the above. However, reality may be a bit different. I am unable to prove or disprove so I won't accuse outright. I have never worked on the OEM side and it is always easy to criticize without any real proof. I have 30 years in the motorcycle industry most of which has been metric. The 30 years also includes a number of years with BMW. I have worked with maybe 15 or so OEM's in all those years. I can tell you that in my opinion BMW NA is the most arrogant, most thick headed of the lot. In order to allow equal press I can also tell you BMW NA thinks I am wrong. I love much of BMW product from motorcycles to clothing to accessories. In fact, it is possible I may never purchase another Japanese motorcycle again due to how much I love boxer motors in particular.

    Having said that I have also been amazed at the number of issues on newly released BMW's in particular although it certainly doesn't stop there. And I am the first to understand that mistakes can be made. It is a rare customer that will be as forgiving as myself. But BMW can do a very good job of introducing soon to be broken product. I do not believe the Japanese folks turn out so many problems. But rather than listen to my opinion lets put forth some facts.

    BMW was fined millions of dollars a few years ago for failing to report recall issues in a timely manner. Now that's scary! The majority of violations were motorcycles on top of it. The following is a link to the story. Pay special attention to how recent these stories are as each story is dated:

    Look towards the end of this story. Out of 16 violations one was automotive and 15 were motorcycle-related. Now you need to realize that recalls are always safety-related. So what happened with BMW here? Is there anyone minding the store? I can't prove it but I totally believe arrogance is at play here. BMW NA's refusal to think that anyone in the chain of events other than themselves could possibly have a point is a real life problem. When a BMW rep lies to your face that's a real problem. When a BMW rep lies to a customers face that's a real problem. When BMW expects the customer to pick up the costs of their blunders that's a real problem. BMW is excellent at attempting to offload the cost of their mistakes onto the dealer network; that's a real problem. How many times did BMW ask me for a dealer "contribution" for warranty work performed? A dealer contribution? Who do they think designed the product? The dealer network? The customer base? Someone once said to me there appears to be a few folks up there in the ivory tower dressed in suits that are actually thugs. Interesting comment.

    Read the following link and pay attention to how many of those recall issues were automotive compared to motorcycle. You can find that information down towards the end of the article:
    http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/20...ty-violations/
    Yes, folks you read it right: 16 total violations. And, 15 were motorcycle-related? How does that happen? Does BMW care about customer safety? Apparently the fed's think not. Your turn to decide.

    A list of vehicles involved follows next:
    http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/20...al-fuel-leaks/


    Having said all this I am a BMW fan although I skew heavily towards boxer motors. Sometimes I wonder if BMW is using the United States customer base as the last step in research and development. Not saying they are just wondering.

    My final comment is this: I recommend BMW's frequently. I do however tell folks that sometimes BMW's will have issues that you wouldn't really anticipate in a $20k motorcycle. As long as you go into the purchase with your eyes open you may be better prepared for the product. Once the initial issues are resolved the bikes turns into quite an excellent product in my eyes. Even if the failure rate is higher than normal typically it is still a minority that will get the opportunity to experience the problem. Of course, with recalls everyone gets the experience.

    Motorcycle owners can be a picky bunch. The reality is perfection will never be achieved. Because of having worked either in or with service departments for so many years I know I will experience quality-related issues frequently no matter how hard I reach for perfection. Especially so when you are creating thousands of repair orders a year. Your average customer is usually not quite that understanding. It may not stop my purchase of future BMW's but a potential buyer has the right to know the facts in order to make a decision for themselves. Shame on BMW for their handling of these issues. Arrogance will do that to you.

  7. #37
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    Making Good

    All the afore mentioned thinking is certainly valid.My only sentiment is to make good on these mistakes.Its like the corporate way of saying I'M sorry.Don't place blame just fix it!

  8. #38
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    Nice concept for the above. However, reality may be a bit different. I am unable to prove or disprove so I won't accuse outright. I have never worked on the OEM side and it is always easy to criticize without any real proof. I have 30 years in the motorcycle industry most of which has been metric. The 30 years also includes a number of years with BMW. I have worked with maybe 15 or so OEM's in all those years. I can tell you that in my opinion BMW NA is the most arrogant, most thick headed of the lot. In order to allow equal press I can also tell you BMW NA thinks I am wrong. I love much of BMW product from motorcycles to clothing to accessories. In fact, it is possible I may never purchase another Japanese motorcycle again due to how much I love boxer motors in particular.

    Having said that I have also been amazed at the number of issues on newly released BMW's in particular although it certainly doesn't stop there. And I am the first to understand that mistakes can be made. It is a rare customer that will be as forgiving as myself. But BMW can do a very good job of introducing soon to be broken product. I do not believe the Japanese folks turn out so many problems. But rather than listen to my opinion lets put forth some facts.

    BMW was fined millions of dollars a few years ago for failing to report recall issues in a timely manner. Now that's scary! The majority of violations were motorcycles on top of it. The following is a link to the story. Pay special attention to how recent these stories are as each story is dated:

    Look towards the end of this story. Out of 16 violations one was automotive and 15 were motorcycle-related. Now you need to realize that recalls are always safety-related. So what happened with BMW here? Is there anyone minding the store? I can't prove it but I totally believe arrogance is at play here. BMW NA's refusal to think that anyone in the chain of events other than themselves could possibly have a point is a real life problem. When a BMW rep lies to your face that's a real problem. When a BMW rep lies to a customers face that's a real problem. When BMW expects the customer to pick up the costs of their blunders that's a real problem. BMW is excellent at attempting to offload the cost of their mistakes onto the dealer network; that's a real problem. How many times did BMW ask me for a dealer "contribution" for warranty work performed? A dealer contribution? Who do they think designed the product? The dealer network? The customer base? Someone once said to me there appears to be a few folks up there in the ivory tower dressed in suits that are actually thugs. Interesting comment.

    Read the following link and pay attention to how many of those recall issues were automotive compared to motorcycle. You can find that information down towards the end of the article:
    http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/20...ty-violations/
    Yes, folks you read it right: 16 total violations. And, 15 were motorcycle-related? How does that happen? Does BMW care about customer safety? Apparently the fed's think not. Your turn to decide.

    A list of vehicles involved follows next:
    http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/20...al-fuel-leaks/


    Having said all this I am a BMW fan although I skew heavily towards boxer motors. Sometimes I wonder if BMW is using the United States customer base as the last step in research and development. Not saying they are just wondering.

    My final comment is this: I recommend BMW's frequently. I do however tell folks that sometimes BMW's will have issues that you wouldn't really anticipate in a $20k motorcycle. As long as you go into the purchase with your eyes open you may be better prepared for the product. Once the initial issues are resolved the bikes turns into quite an excellent product in my eyes. Even if the failure rate is higher than normal typically it is still a minority that will get the opportunity to experience the problem. Of course, with recalls everyone gets the experience.

    Motorcycle owners can be a picky bunch. The reality is perfection will never be achieved. Because of having worked either in or with service departments for so many years I know I will experience quality-related issues frequently no matter how hard I reach for perfection. Especially so when you are creating thousands of repair orders a year. Your average customer is usually not quite that understanding. It may not stop my purchase of future BMW's but a potential buyer has the right to know the facts in order to make a decision for themselves. Shame on BMW for their handling of these issues. Arrogance will do that to you.

    So what brand(s), in your experience, are the most reliable and also best to deal with when there are problems?
    My Motorrad
    BMWMOA 162849 | BMWRA 41335 | VROC 8109-R | VBA 19

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    So what brand(s), in your experience, are the most reliable and also best to deal with when there are problems?
    I'm not sure there really is a "most reliable". Today's motor vehicle product is pretty darn good. Even Harley despite not being world class IMO is a far cry from decades ago. Despite being extremely picky in business and the need to do what's right I'm really not very picky in my personal life. Years ago I never would have touched a Harley. Today? Not an issue with me despite knowing their probably not the quality equivalent of metric or BMW. I'd rather custom build a fat front tire "Exile" type bike as seen here:

    http://www.exilecycles.com/index.php?section=14

    I love the looks of the Exile Bulldozer! Obviously not most folks cup of tea but the build is fun, the bike looks bad ass and sounds good. By the way, I have no issue with loud bikes up to a point but I prefer BMW whisper quiet.

    Despite BMW recall issues my favorite bikes are as follows:
    1) BMW R1200RT
    2) BMW R1200RT (yes, again - I love the bike)
    3) BMW R1200 RT or a GS (the nod would really go to the RT once again) (I know RT again - once I rode a boxer I fell in love with a boxer)

    I truly wonder what the heck goes on at BMW with all their issues. I would still buy their product based on the following: once the initial problem or problems are cleared up the bikes have always been fantastic. Many people would not be willing to put up with that. Yes, you may end up getting stuck with some major repair such as a clutch issue or an ABS pump down the road. While I certainly don't want that to occur I'm willing to risk it because I'm convinced the RT is the finest touring motorcycle in the world for my needs. Can't tell you how much I enjoy touring on a boxer!!

    Although I have no interest in Japanese I do believe any of the 4 majors make good stuff. I personally would give the nod to Honda and Yamaha as far as quality of paint and fitment is concerned. I rode Gold Wings for many years and they are a fabulous machine. I'm just not happy with that type of bulk anymore. Too big, too heavy IMO. But seemingly you really can't go wrong with one. I like the new F6B Gold Wing (http://powersports.honda.com/cruiser...-wing-f6b.aspx) although I'm not sure I'd be a buyer. It looks a bit too much like some of the Harley's. If you want to look like a Harley I say buy a Harley. I would take the money and build a custom in the configuration discussed earlier. Then ride my RT most of the time and when I'm feeling bad boy hop on the custom.

    The metric OEM's are known to have rep's that are far more accommodating than BMW ever dreamed of being. Given the price of BMW ownership that is a sad statement to make.

    Triumph has a wonderful line of motorcycles from classics to modern day stuff. I prefer the classics. Triumph has gone out of their way a number of times in order to accommodate a customer. The exact total opposite of BMW and perhaps the best to work with of all when it comes to warranty issues. Except for dealer warranty reimbursement. If you're lucky you end up with approximately 50% to 60% reimbursement compared to what the repair is actually worth. But that won't affect the customer. If you're the dealer and you care about the customer the shortage is all part of the gig. They don't break often enough to really make it an issue IMO.

    There it is... the world according to me, for whatever that's worth. Feel free to season to taste.

  10. #40
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    I own a RT. For the most part I love the bike. The only complaints I have are: What I would call a lot of driveline lash, a lot of throttle lash and I hate the mirrors, but that is easy to fix(seat too). I tried adjusting the throttle cables at the grip, but it didn't help much and it could use a quick turn throttle, if you know what I mean. I've heard the throttle by wire on the GS is a lot better. That said, the ergos on the new RT look more sporty and less adjustable, meaning look at the handlebars. If I ever get another BMW, it'll be a GSA. It fits me a lot better.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    I own a RT. For the most part I love the bike. The only complaints I have are: What I would call a lot of driveline lash, a lot of throttle lash and I hate the mirrors, but that is easy to fix(seat too). I tried adjusting the throttle cables at the grip, but it didn't help much and it could use a quick turn throttle, if you know what I mean. I've heard the throttle by wire on the GS is a lot better. That said, the ergos on the new RT look more sporty and less adjustable, meaning look at the handlebars. If I ever get another BMW, it'll be a GSA. It fits me a lot better.
    GSA's are great bikes. I tend to favor bikes that have a touring look. You can't beat the seat to footpeg relationship on a GSA. Lot's of room.

    The only fly by wire I have experience with is the 6-cylinder. I really have no opinion on it as it felt a bit strange to me but again I have always been used to a throttle cable. I don't like the 6 as it is too low to the ground and it does have substantial drive line lash. We had a few customers complain about it so I contacted BMW to discuss. Their answer was the driveshaft is working as designed. I then asked why they designed lash into the system and what were the benefits in order to explain them to the customer. Of course, they had no answer and that ended the phone call. I am sad to say you cannot rely on NA's answers. They must all attend the same class because no matter who you talk to the denial is always the same.

  12. #42
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy walker View Post
    GSA's are great bikes. I tend to favor bikes that have a touring look. You can't beat the seat to footpeg relationship on a GSA. Lot's of room.

    The only fly by wire I have experience with is the 6-cylinder. I really have no opinion on it as it felt a bit strange to me but again I have always been used to a throttle cable. I don't like the 6 as it is too low to the ground and it does have substantial drive line lash. We had a few customers complain about it so I contacted BMW to discuss. Their answer was the driveshaft is working as designed. I then asked why they designed lash into the system and what were the benefits in order to explain them to the customer. Of course, they had no answer and that ended the phone call. I am sad to say you cannot rely on NA's answers. They must all attend the same class because no matter who you talk to the denial is always the same.
    Similar with Apple. I have worked for independent Apple shops and they have a talking points training we had to do every year. The truth is, it is the way it is and they ain't changing it. May be they think that if there was no lash, there'd be more liability because it would be easier to wheelie. In any event, I am 6'5 with 34" inseam and my knees are starting to bother me after riding, even with a peg lowering kit on the RT.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponch1 View Post
    Similar with Apple. I have worked for independent Apple shops and they have a talking points training we had to do every year. The truth is, it is the way it is and they ain't changing it. May be they think that if there was no lash, there'd be more liability because it would be easier to wheelie. In any event, I am 6'5 with 34" inseam and my knees are starting to bother me after riding, even with a peg lowering kit on the RT.
    Yea, but you know what Ponch? Anyone involved in the industry is aware that drive line lash is not a desirable characteristic. You automatically know some within the customer base will complain about it. You need to get ahead of this issue. If there are benefits to having that lash you need to have talking points addressing the lash and then advise the customer through sales literature as to why it's beneficial. If there are no benefits to me it's called get it back to the engineers. Another shining example of BMW arrogance.

    At your height my friend there certainly isn't much choice in the marketplace. R1200GSA with a peg lowering kit might be the ticket.

  14. #44
    Registered User mpmarty's Avatar
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    Someday US riders will form a BMWNA (BMW National Alliance) and sue the pants off of BMW NA in Federal court showing their high handed practices and complete disregard for customer expectations of suitability for intended use and safety.
    Marty - in the western Oregon mountains.'06RT, (gone '04RT, '86 Venture Royal, '81 Yamaha Virago920, '82Suzuki GS1100GK, '76 Suzuki GT750, Triumph 750 Bonneville, BSA Road Rocket 650, 61" Harley knucklehead)

  15. #45
    Ponch ponch1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPMARTY View Post
    Someday US riders will form a BMWNA (BMW National Alliance) and sue the pants off of BMW NA in Federal court showing their high handed practices and complete disregard for customer expectations of suitability for intended use and safety.
    And someday humans will be able to jump off cliffs naked and fly by flapping their arms.
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