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Thread: ON Magazine's article on oil?

  1. #61
    Registered User chewbacca's Avatar
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    Mike/Kent,
    I'm not sure if there so much disagreement here, but rather looking at temperature from different viewpoints. All engines, air, water or oil cooled are designed to run at range of operating temperatures. If it doesn't run there bad things happen. Letting engines just sit and run isn't good. I'm sure we've all seen the cop cars sitting with hoods up in the summer to cool them. One of the things designers can overlook is the oil not only lubricates but carries heat away from vital areas. For example, a good friend explained how that was a major contributor in FD failures.
    Rod
    Old But Not Dead
    Semper Fi

  2. #62
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    It's funny, how arguments go sometimes. When someone says "Don't run your engine too hot, i.e.: too close to maximum operating temperature" somebody else starts arguing that running an engine too cold is bad.....

  3. #63
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    In terms of engine life, cold starts are a different factor than an engine that's running too cold in long term operation. What does this "brad thing" mean? Not to change the subject mind you...
    "If I had my life to live over, I'd dare to make more mistakes next time...I'd relax,I'd limber up... I would take fewer things seriously...take more chances... take more trips...climb more mountains...swim more rivers...eat more ice cream." Jorge Luis Borges at age 85.

  4. #64
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMSimon View Post
    somebody else starts arguing that running an engine too cold is bad.
    No, it actually is.

    It's a problem especially for diesels which have no throttles and change speeds by change in fuel/air ratio.

    Unlike a gasoline engine which mostly runs all the time at stoichiometric 15/1 air/fuel ratio, a diesel may run at something like 150/1 and could actually cool down too much. Modern diesels have electronics to detect this and bump up the idle speed to avoid overcooling. You've seen the canvas radiator covers.
    Kent Christensen
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMSimon View Post
    " somebody else starts arguing that running an engine too cold is bad.....

    Sorry, "language barrier". I meant to say: "someone else starts an argument and says "running an engine too cold is bad"

  6. #66
    Registered User hjsbmw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20774 View Post
    ...I have already sent in my updates to Vince...not sure how he's going to deal with the changes.

    As for the red curve in Figure 2. The axis label was supposed to say "% of Grade". The red curve, actually it's just the red dots (I added the curve to help visualize where the dots were) is plotted against the right axis. I was trying to show where the given oil fell within the range of 50w units (centistokes per 100 deg C). The viscosity for a 50w oil can be anywhere from 21.89 to 16.3. An oil viscosity can be 21.8 or 16.4 and still be called a 50w oil. The higher up in that range, I considered that to be "better". Seems to me starting out near the top of the range would allow for some degradation during use and still rank as a 50w.
    That helped. It wasn't clear from the text, and I had been scratching my head over it.
    Harald
    2007 R1200R

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyropete@sympatico.ca View Post
    Hit my local O`reilly`s auto parts in Michigan today to pick up some DOT3 brake fluid. They had Valvoline racing 20-50 in
    Dino and synthetic on sale . $3.99 and $4.99 .as well as several other brands and viscosities....
    Thats what I settled on. Valvoline VR1 20W50 Exceeds SG CD. My RT manual says 20W50 SE SF SG CC CD.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by lbarbee View Post
    Used my advanced technical degree to determine that the article implied: oil is good.
    I am definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I too concluded "oil is good". I guess that's a good thing!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjsbmw View Post
    That helped. It wasn't clear from the text, and I had been scratching my head over it.
    I just read the advertising in the magazines...

  10. #70
    Bluenoser
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    Quote Originally Posted by R100RT_Mark View Post
    Paul, That was my biggest surprise. As far as the tests conducted are concerned, it seems that they are identical (within confidence ranges given the limited number of samples).

    Everyone, Are Paul and I missing something? For example, might the 4T Four Stroke Motorcycle Oil have additives that means it has superior performance over time than the GTX? If so, what would they be and how do we identify them? What data is there about the performance of any of these oils over time?
    In addition to one being synthetic and one not, the total additive package is different. One is designed to be used in engines, wet clutches and transmissions while the other is for engines only. Zinc & phosp are only part of the equation.

    I took out the Mob 1 Vtwin 20-50 out of my HD and changed the oil and filter and put back in Castrol Power RS 10-50 full synthetic and noticed that the engine ran quieter ( particularly the top end ) and on the oil temp gauge in the oil tank it ran noticeably cooler. The engine also rev'd freeer. So which is better, I lean towards the Castrol because less heat & noise means less friction.

    Cold starts are where most of the wear comes from. I'll keep an eye on the magnetic drain plug and see if anything shows up but seeing as Castrol does recommend the 10-50 weight for HD's, I don't expect any issues.
    1971 R50/5 SWB with R75/6 drivetrain
    2013 DL650

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    Zinc vs. ZDDP ?

    Is BMW's recommendation for 1200 ppm of zinc or 1200 ppm of ZDDP? When I look at the ZDDP Comparison chart it appears that the zinc concentration for Castrol 4T is about 1700 ppm because the red bar is in that range. But according to the Laboratory Results table the Castrol 4T has only 924 ppm of zinc. If zinc is what we (airheads) are looking for only Spectro4 and BMW 4-Stroke meet the standard in the petro oil category . . . right?

  12. #72
    Administrator 20774's Avatar
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    I believe the ideal concentrations are 1200 ppm of zinc and 1200 ppm of phosphorus...so 2400 total.
    Kurt -- Forum Administrator ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
    mine-ineye-deatheah-pielayah-jooa-kalayus. oolah-minane-hay-meeriah-kal-oyus-algay-a-thaykin', buddy!

  13. #73
    Bluenoser
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    My understand is that ZDDP is the additive package that includes zinc & phosphorous. I also understand BMW's recommendation was that 1200 ppm zinc was adequate for flat tappet engines. So that is a starting point not an end point. Only a VOA ( Oil analysis ) of the used oil will tell you what is going on with the oil you have chosen to use in your bike.

    The anti wear package ( that includes zinc ) is really meant there as a final barrier lubrication. An example of when this lubrication is important and comes into play every time - is when the connecting rod is under load at the top & bottom of a stroke when the oil is being compressed between the bearing and the crank. When this barrier lubrication breaks down then you will have scoring & wear on the bearing surface and if its bad enough it will take the bearing out.

    Other additive packages are being added to zinc ( catalytic converters don't like zinc - messes with them ) to provide the barrier lubrication and that is why most if not all automotive energy conserving oils have lower levels of zinc and they substitute other things than zinc ( and that's why they don't work well with wet clutches ) to allow them to meet a minimum barrier lubrication level. Many use an automotive type of oil, of the right weigh classification in a BMW motorcycle engine with no issues. Whereas if you have a wet clutch you might want to stick with JASO rated oils, which are designed to work with wet clutches.

    If you read an VOA of used oils they will give you a TBN count - which is the amount of the additive package remaining ( anything over 1 is good ) and also the viscosity at 100 C. As long as the oil falls in the ranges specified you are good to go. At the end of the day it is the additive package that matters be it dino or sync oil and usually a sync oil is going to win out because its molecules don't break down as readily under high heat conditions and yet provided better lubrication at startup, where the majority of wear occurs.

    No matter how many oil threads I read they all end the same. Basically pick an oil that meets the minimum standard for your ambient temp, change it & the filter at reasonable intervals, say no more than 5K miles and you will have no oil related issues. If the oil falls ( for airhead/oilhead BMW's ) in the 50 weight range and meets the ZDDP standard then you are good to go. Yes there is always the possibility that a 50 weight oil with a starting viscosity @ 100 C of 16.9 may go lower than a 50 weight oil with a starting viscosity of 21 but until you do a VOA of the used oil you won't know that and as long as the TBN is above 1 then it really isn't going to matter.

    Oil threads can be fun & informative, but one shouldn't get too hung up on them, being Friday its about time for a glass or two. Have a good weekend.
    1971 R50/5 SWB with R75/6 drivetrain
    2013 DL650

  14. #74
    Administrator 20774's Avatar
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    That's sounds like a lot of the stuff I read out as I stepped into this. But I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the value of 1 for TBN. All of the oils in the analysis group had TBNs that were 6 or above, most being at the 8 level...the units are mgKOH/g (milligrams of potassium hydroxide per gram). The value of 1 seems quite low in my mind. A pertroleum engineer at my place of work told me that TBN is usually used in conjunction with TAN, total acid number, in evaluating an oil. TBN starts out high in a new oil while TAN is very low, if not zero. As the oil does it's job throughout the oil change cycle, TBN drops and TAN increases. His point was that when TBN equals TAN, that's the time to consider changing the oil. Probably among other considerations. But as you suggest, only an analysis of used oil samples over time will give you the true state of the oil and the protection it provides. Fleets of vehicles are managed this way in order to optimize their oil change intervals in an effort to save money while protecting their vehicles.
    Kurt -- Forum Administrator ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
    mine-ineye-deatheah-pielayah-jooa-kalayus. oolah-minane-hay-meeriah-kal-oyus-algay-a-thaykin', buddy!

  15. #75
    Bluenoser
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    The value of 1 for a TBN is for a used sample indicating that there is little life left in the additive package. This is not the starting point of the additive package as that's usually around 10. When you are getting to low numbers like 1 then the oil has reached the end of its useful life and should be replaced.

    If you look at a VOA of a virgin oil and then a used oil from the same batch/type/weight you will see where the additive package starts out and what it was when the oil was tested.

    I'm just quoting the numbers I see on various oil samples that have been lab analyzed. My understand is that this is the way you can figure out if you are running your oil too long or if it still has life left and can be run longer.

    I find it interesting that some car manufactures have scaled back on the mileage between oil changes as they've found that running the oil longer has caused more wear and hence more warranty claims. Now who would have thought that might be a problem.
    1971 R50/5 SWB with R75/6 drivetrain
    2013 DL650

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