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Thread: Starting Woes

  1. #16
    Brick Pilot der ziegelstein's Avatar
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    I'm 99% positive it came from inside the engine. When I removed the plugs that dirt just poured out into my hand. If it were grime there should be some stuck on the plug, or at least on the threads, but the plugs are as clean as can be. The film on anti-seize on the plug threads is clean as well.
    This substance was pretty powdery.
    Left Cylinder Ground.jpg
    Jim McGill
    '87 K100RS
    '04 R1150RT

  2. #17
    BMW Rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Ziegelstein View Post
    I'm 99% positive it came from inside the engine. When I removed the plugs that dirt just poured out into my hand. If it were grime there should be some stuck on the plug, or at least on the threads, but the plugs are as clean as can be. The film on anti-seize on the plug threads is clean as well.
    This substance was pretty powdery.
    Left Cylinder Ground.jpg
    Does it appear to be carbon or pieces of rust mixed in with grime? It's hard to imagine that quantity of material just floating in your combustion chamber and making no noise.

  3. #18
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    carbon build up on piston crown and valve faces, banging against each other and impeding valve movement?
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  4. #19
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    To me, what's in the palm if your hand doesn't look like carbon at all. It looks like dirt. Ive never seen that much of anything come from inside an engine's combustion chamber. Here's a wild idea:

    A rodent got into your airbox, chewed through the filter and it has been ingested into the engine. Or maybe someone vandalized your bike. I'm not sure what you should do next.

    Open the airbox, inspect it, the intake tubes and the throttle bodies as well as you can. Next, I'd pull the plugs and inspect the insides of both combustion chambers to see if it's on both sides.

    My guess is the battery/starter, etc. seem bad because the engine is presenting a very high load. Most likely you're going to have to pull the heads although perhaps with enough effort and compressed air and lubrication you can get it going.

    Remind me, will your bike start?

  5. #20
    Registered User Olsensan's Avatar
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    Is it possible that crap from the carbon canister got filled up with crap and dumped it into the engine? It supposed to push vapors into the engine to burn, what if it was filled with nasty stuff. Was the bike sitting for sometime before you tried starting it? This is one for bizzaaro world that I will remember. Wouldn't be interesting if that were all burnt up mouse guts and poop in there ha?

  6. #21
    Brick Pilot der ziegelstein's Avatar
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    I checked the air box, no signs of forced entry. This dirt was present in both cylinders. The engine will not even rotate at this point, let alone fire.

    I will look into the carbon canister, that had not crossed my mind. The bike has sat for about 3 months and this dirt seems to be a new development.

    One thought that occurred to me today was this; I purchased the bike last February with 86000 miles on it. The gentlemen I purchased it from told me he bought it from a guy who only owned it for a short time was displeased with the performance of the bike. It turned out the poor performance was due to a bad coil. I am wondering how many chemicals were dumped into the gas tank trying to remedy what was possibly perceived as a clogged injector. These chemicals may have burned in such a manner to cause this buildup that has just now decided to let go for some reason. I have put an additional 16000 miles on it since.

    I have secured the use of a boroscope that I will employ tonight after I get home from replacing my torx socket.
    Jim McGill
    '87 K100RS
    '04 R1150RT

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by der ziegelstein View Post
    I checked the air box, no signs of forced entry. This dirt was present in both cylinders. The engine will not even rotate at this point, let alone fire.

    I will look into the carbon canister, that had not crossed my mind. The bike has sat for about 3 months and this dirt seems to be a new development.

    One thought that occurred to me today was this; I purchased the bike last February with 86000 miles on it. The gentlemen I purchased it from told me he bought it from a guy who only owned it for a short time was displeased with the performance of the bike. It turned out the poor performance was due to a bad coil. I am wondering how many chemicals were dumped into the gas tank trying to remedy what was possibly perceived as a clogged injector. These chemicals may have burned in such a manner to cause this buildup that has just now decided to let go for some reason. I have put an additional 16000 miles on it since.

    I have secured the use of a boroscope that I will employ tonight after I get home from replacing my torx socket.
    If you're positive the foreign matter came out of the spark plug holes you just need to begin with a top end tear down boroscope or no boroscope. The fact that the engine will not spin is bad sign #2. Best of luck here. Please do let us know what you find.

  8. #23
    It's a way of life! oldnslow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by der ziegelstein View Post
    I tried rotating it with the rear wheel but it doesn't want to budge.
    When I did my valves and tried to rotate the engine with the rear wheel, it took ALOT of grunt to move it,(yes with both side spark plugs removed!)..so much needed that my girlfriend couldnt do it. Are you putting enough grunt to it?
    Mike Davis
    "Old n Slow" It's a way of life!
    1985 K100RT

    1998 R1100RT

  9. #24
    Registered User Olsensan's Avatar
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    I was wondering if you recently bought this bike and one of the prior owners treated the bike like sh-t. Did PO number 1 or 2 leave this outside in the rain etc. and mistreated or as another above suggested vandalized. The gas filter would prevent any nasties from being delivered to the engine but what if the innards of the tank were rusted out? Take a looksee in the tank and even in the throttle bodies. Sorry you have to go through this nightmare but something is seriously not right here. I have to wonder if someone did something nasty to the prior owner(s) and I'm sure this is going through your mind too. For anything to really get into those cylinders, it has to be small enough to get through the injectors and other small orifices. It would have to be a liquid type product or inherent to the cylinder workings. What could rust or deteriorate in the cylinder to produce that type of byproduct. Rings as they are steel, a sleeve in the cylinder?
    Last edited by OLSENSAN; 04-16-2013 at 03:44 PM.

  10. #25
    MOA #24991 Pauls1150's Avatar
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    The carbon granules inside the canister have no problem getting into the engine - with too much gas and high vacuum, they're sucked right through the hoses and air orifices.

    As for dirt around the spark plugs - that's why it is Absolutely Necessary to use lots of high-pressure compressed air down the access tunnel (BEFORE removing the plug) AND through the front & rear airflow ports in the head.

  11. #26
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls1150 View Post
    As for dirt around the spark plugs - that's why it is Absolutely Necessary to use lots of high-pressure compressed air down the access tunnel (BEFORE removing the plug) AND through the front & rear airflow ports in the head.

    +1+1+1+1+1 Amazing the amount of debris that comes out.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  12. #27
    MOA #24991 Pauls1150's Avatar
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    Also - if the hose or cap slips off the bottom throttle-body nipple, you are now sucking in unfiltered air. More crapitation, tarpiculates, etc. (and why I add a little ty-wrap there)

  13. #28
    Brick Pilot der ziegelstein's Avatar
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    Had a little time to work on it tonight.

    Snapped another torx socket but eventually got the bolt out.

    Removed the right side valve cover and everything appears to be in order in there. There doesn't appear to be a stuck valve or any other mechanical failure with the valve train.

    Only twisted off one exhaust manifold stud. Next step is to separate the exhaust at the converter(any tips here would be greatly appreciated.)

    The dirt in the pics was not from the exterior of the heads, it came from the combustion chamber.

    The caps are still on the throttle body nipples, dry and cracked but intact.

    The throttle body on the left side is spotless. I haven't gotten into the right side yet.
    Jim McGill
    '87 K100RS
    '04 R1150RT

  14. #29
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
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    The clamp holding the header pipe to the catalytic/muffler end does get quite rusty from the heat and road moisture and debris. I had a time getting mine off but patience and penetrating oil like Kroil works. You can also mix up some tranny fluid and acetone and squirt some on there. Walk away. Do it again some time later and then try again. If it is still frozen you'll need to use heat. A pain, but it will come apart eventually.

    Anti seize when re-installing helps future removals go easier.

    The amount of stuff in your hand is shocking. As stated before it is hard to imagine that coming out of a cylinder. When you say it just poured out into your hand you mean all that came from the recess in a spark plug?
    Not sure if anyone asked yet but did you blow out the spark plug holes and cooling airways in the heads before you removed the plugs? If you did and I missed it just ignore...
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  15. #30
    Brick Pilot der ziegelstein's Avatar
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    Yes, all of that dirt was poured out of a spark plug. It was in the space between the electrode and the body. I got the same amount out of the other one.
    Jim McGill
    '87 K100RS
    '04 R1150RT

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