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Thread: E15

  1. #31
    Cam Killer marchyman's Avatar
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    While the discussion about energy policy (and the lack thereof) is interesting, it really has little to do with this specific discussion. What you have are private sector groups on the opposite sides of the argument lobbying government to get their way. The EPA is somewhat stuck in the middle.

    E15 is NOT an EPA mandate. Never has been. It started in 2009 when an ethanol promoting industry group petitioned the EPA to allow a waiver to the current rules so they could sell E15. The EPA granted a partial waiver. Should they have? They were screwed regardless. If they didn't they would have been accused of blocking the free market. Instead they are being accused of forcing the use of ethanol.

    If you want to bitch about the push for ethanol you need to direct your attention to this group: http://growthenergy.org/
    That is the ethanol industry group that is promoting the use of ethanol and the ones who asked the EPA for waivers.

    See http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/ for details on this subject.

  2. #32
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    Thus our attention should be towards those we DON'T elect to office, such as industry trade groups? Makes the whole scenario seem like we are the powerless pawns we probably happen to be? I understand the power of money but my only power is my spending habits & my vote.
    "If I had my life to live over, I'd dare to make more mistakes next time...I'd relax,I'd limber up... I would take fewer things seriously...take more chances... take more trips...climb more mountains...swim more rivers...eat more ice cream." Jorge Luis Borges at age 85.

  3. #33
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Today's NYT ... More ethanol in our future.

    Ethanol Surplus May Lift Gas Prices
    By MATTHEW L. WALD
    WASHINGTON ÔÇö A glut of ethanol in the gasoline supply is threatening to push up prices at the pump and may have exacerbated the growing cost gap between regular gasoline and premium, some oil experts say.

    Refiners have been trading so-called ethanol credits furiously in an effort to meet federal environmental mandates, helping to significantly push up the cost of those credits ÔÇö a jump to more than $1 from a few pennies in the last several days, and drivers are feeling the effects, experts say.

    Prices for premium gas are now about 30.2 cents over the price of regular, according to Trilby Lundberg of the Lundberg Survey. That is up from 24.1 cents in 2010 and 18.2 cents in 2000. Any increases could affect about a third of this yearÔÇÖs car models, because premium fuel is required or recommended for them, according to Edmunds.com. ...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/bu...gewanted=print

  4. #34
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger 04 RT View Post
    Today's NYT ... More ethanol in our future.

    Ethanol Surplus May Lift Gas Prices
    By MATTHEW L. WALD
    WASHINGTON ÔÇö A glut of ethanol in the gasoline supply is threatening to push up prices at the pump and may have exacerbated the growing cost gap between regular gasoline and premium, some oil experts say.

    Refiners have been trading so-called ethanol credits furiously in an effort to meet federal environmental mandates, helping to significantly push up the cost of those credits ÔÇö a jump to more than $1 from a few pennies in the last several days, and drivers are feeling the effects, experts say.

    Prices for premium gas are now about 30.2 cents over the price of regular, according to Trilby Lundberg of the Lundberg Survey. That is up from 24.1 cents in 2010 and 18.2 cents in 2000. Any increases could affect about a third of this yearÔÇÖs car models, because premium fuel is required or recommended for them, according to Edmunds.com. ...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/bu...gewanted=print
    Interesting article, but somewhat confusing. At the end, the discussion centers on the ethanol and oil industries trading accusations about speculating on credit exchanges. Remember Enron and the NG market scam.
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  5. #35
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    Just imagine for a minute, that all the boutique blending differing from coast to coast, city to city, sometimes county to county, all the cooking of grains, all the draining of our great underground aquifers, all of the corporate co-op start ups, all of this wouldn't amount to jack, just imagine what the true market cost of regular old gas would be to our economy. Probably about a buck a gallon. Just sayin, two cents.

  6. #36
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ninety8 View Post
    Just imagine for a minute, that all the boutique blending differing from coast to coast, city to city, sometimes county to county, all the cooking of grains, all the draining of our great underground aquifers, all of the corporate co-op start ups, all of this wouldn't amount to jack, just imagine what the true market cost of regular old gas would be to our economy. Probably about a buck a gallon. Just sayin, two cents.
    And then what? What would change?
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  7. #37
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    Well, it would cost about five bucks to fill up the bike with gas, swing yer leg over the saddle, and things would be no worse off for the effort. Now if that proved unachievable, then at the least exempt all motorcycles/scooters and any other vastly more environmentally friendly, high mileage, low impact vehicles from burning E15 or E10 as the costs involved both in vehicle development and technical complexity isn't worth the negligible environmental payback. Just trying to think critically, outside the box. Two cents on the use of E anything.

  8. #38
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    Read the lead article in the latest National Geographic about the oil sands in ND,MT , SK & Manitoba. It takes lots of water(as much as 2million gals per well plus lots of chemicals & other stuff) in a water short area to keep up the production of that oil & ND is now #2 in US petro.
    Last edited by kantuckid; 03-17-2013 at 05:19 PM.
    "If I had my life to live over, I'd dare to make more mistakes next time...I'd relax,I'd limber up... I would take fewer things seriously...take more chances... take more trips...climb more mountains...swim more rivers...eat more ice cream." Jorge Luis Borges at age 85.

  9. #39
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ninety8 View Post
    Well, it would cost about five bucks to fill up the bike with gas, swing yer leg over the saddle, and things would be no worse off for the effort. Now if that proved unachievable, then at the least exempt all motorcycles/scooters and any other vastly more environmentally friendly, high mileage, low impact vehicles from burning E15 or E10 as the costs involved both in vehicle development and technical complexity isn't worth the negligible environmental payback. Just trying to think critically, outside the box. Two cents on the use of E anything.
    In other words, the products you use would remain unchanged. No need for improved efficiency, but larger size would be good? Yes? It seems like things would be pretty stable.

    Sounds a lot like the "Detroit" world prior to 1973.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kantuckid View Post
    Read the lead article in the latest National Geographic about the oil sands in ND,MT , SK & Alberta. It takes lots of water in a water short area to keep up the production of that oil & ND is now #2 in US petro.
    There's a interesting article on the businessweek website about Eastern Canada not authorizing pipelines to carry the oil east. Instead, the eastern provinces import Algerian oil refined in TX.
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  11. #41
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    With all due respect, development of oil sands is a different discussion. However, as with the production of anything here in the West, nowhere compares with our environmental controls, (maybe Europe?) fines, penalties, etc. Whether E15 or E10, or production of gas, energy producers are under intense scrutiny. Most troubling is aquifer depletion, and mandated compliance for two wheeled vehicles that even in year round climes, are infrequently seen tooling down the road. It is quite likely the introduction of water cooling to the GS has less to do with cutting edge cool needed technological development, improving the breed, than it does to complying with the ever increasing across the board sweeping vehicle emissions law. Cross thread to the water cooled GS, where it was mentioned 7000 BMW engineers, including their automotive division, in the development of motorcycles. And after E15 there's the benefits of E20.

  12. #42
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    Yes, would agree that regular old 91 octane gas with no ethanol works just fine even in an old airhead, easily exceeding 40 mpg over thirty years from production. Using an ethanol product in motorcycles may be environmentally unnecessary . Think of how the BMW breed could have been developed in other ways, differently for its present day owners and purchasers, if the negligible environmental exhaust emissions would have been exempted? who knows, may have offered better seating, or name other items needing refinement.

  13. #43
    Cam Killer marchyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ninety8 View Post
    Probably about a buck a gallon. Just sayin, two cents.
    A barrel of crude costs $90 ~ $100. That's 42 gal of crude. You get about 20 gal of gasoline out of that. Plus some kerosene/jet fuel (4 gal), diesel/heating oil (10 gal), etc. And waste. The material cost of gasoline is in the $2 ~ $2.50 gal range. That's before refinery operation costs, refinery profits, fuel delivery costs, gas station fixed costs, gas station profits, and taxes.

    Tell me again how gas could be around a buck a gallon?

  14. #44
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ninety8 View Post
    With all due respect, development of oil sands is a different discussion. However, as with the production of anything here in the West, nowhere compares with our environmental controls, (maybe Europe?) fines, penalties, etc. Whether E15 or E10, or production of gas, energy producers are under intense scrutiny. Most troubling is aquifer depletion, and mandated compliance for two wheeled vehicles that even in year round climes, are infrequently seen tooling down the road. It is quite likely the introduction of water cooling to the GS has less to do with cutting edge cool needed technological development, improving the breed, than it does to complying with the ever increasing across the board sweeping vehicle emissions law. Cross thread to the water cooled GS, where it was mentioned 7000 BMW engineers, including their automotive division, in the development of motorcycles. And after E15 there's the benefits of E20.
    I guess I don't share your opinion that the upper mid-West is under greater scrutiny than anywhere else in the country. Most of the population centers in the east are surrounded by high value agricultural regions and bisected by rivers. We are also downwind of the upper mid-west. In addition, we have a much higher concentration of humans and, possibly, animals.

    Accordingly, I look at environmental laws as a means of improving / protecting our environment with better technology. Sadly, others take a static perspective on technology and consider environmental laws as a threat to their current practices and lifestyles.
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  15. #45
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    Just picked a buck as to where it was back say in the mid nineties. Buck eighty would also work. What's crude really worth? At the wellhead? The price of any commodity, oil included, and ethanol enriched gas, should controlled by market demand. However, when the barrel of crude yields too little profit, usually OPEC steps up, lowers production, and the prices come roaring back. Or in the instance of 1974, they simply conspired to raise the price.

    Exempting two wheelers, kiddies dirt bikes, watercraft, snowmobiles, etc. from ethanol use just makes common sense. There is simply not enough of this type of use to warrent legal control. An impartial objective study would reveal much as to how much fuel is actually used in these vehicles annually as compared to the big burners, cars, trains, planes, trucks and busses.

    Some want to burn ethanol, others question it's use, even its possible benefit to payback ratio.
    What can be said except that it's still debatable. In Minnesota legislators wisely allowed pumps, at the stations' expense, to sell non ethanol gas, which I use, for engines requiring no ethanol, and the pumps are so labeled for special use only. Not much of this gas is sold, or burned, not a problem. I usually pay in excess of four bucks a gallon for the straight gas.

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