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Thread: Beware of "THE BOLTS"!

  1. #16
    Rally Rat
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    Removing broken bolts are part of how i make my living. I'm a welder.

    This is an 04 ford V8 exhaust.






    When I weld a nut to the broken stud in this case, it heats the stud.

    With heat, the stud wants to expand in all ways. It cannot expand in diameter because its contained.
    It can grow in length. When it cools it contracts in all ways, so it sometimes breaks loose from the heat/cool action. This also makes the hole warmer so it expands. The nut welded on the end gives me a good hold.

    Here are the many attempts it took me to get a stud out of a 1988 Suzuki 600 something. Lots of attempts but in the end I won.



    I started out with a 110v mig welder. No joy so we hoisted the whole bike up by the front wheel and used TIG with 316LSI filler. After only a few more tries I got the stud out as seen in the pic.

    David

  2. #17
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    Those are screws.

    Bolts need nuts on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    I knew that but misspoke. But that raises an interesting question.

    I have in my hand a "thing" with a socket head for a metric 6mm Allen wrench and 20mm length of M6x1.25 threads.

    It might go into a threaded hole with matching M6x1.25 threads; or

    It might go through non-threaded holes on two or more pieces and thread into an M6x1.25 nut.

    My F650, K75, and R1150R all have some of these things attached to them.

    So, here it is, in my hand. Is this thing a bolt, or is it a screw. Or does it remain just a thing until I decide where it needs to be installed?

    I need to go put this thing back in the little drawer in my collection of things now.

    Added after I got back from the parts bin: I just found another thing. It goes through the pivot point on a clutch lever and threads into threads on the perch. But it also then takes a nut on the threaded end too. This one happens to have a straight slot on what would be the top end when installed. So is this a bolt because it takes a nut or a screw because it threads into a threaded hole in the perch? Or is it a screwbolt?
    Not having the depth of experience to know that a bolt is called a screw when used without a nut, I've always called them bolts when they have the possibility of being used as such. "I just tightened the bolt on the cylinder head." This has often left me troubled and awake at night when a "bolt" happens to have an allen head on it.

    Here is something I found on an engineering site:

    The words "bolt" and "screw" are ambiguous. Bolt or screw is not a physical thing; it is a matter of how a physical thing is used. However, there are those who have set about trying to define these words as precise engineering terms. The very nature of the common English use of these words renders that impossible. They further set themselves up as the ultimate authority on the meaning of these two words and chide accepted official standards for not adopting their ÔÇ£authoritativeÔÇØ definition. Acceptable standards such as The Machinery's Handbooki, the various government and military parts standards, and ASMEii parts standards are among the typical standards we as engineers rely on.

  3. #18
    Lucky motorradmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger 04 RT View Post
    Here is something I found on an engineering site:

    The words "bolt" and "screw" are ambiguous. Bolt or screw is not a physical thing; it is a matter of how a physical thing is used. However, there are those who have set about trying to define these words as precise engineering terms. The very nature of the common English use of these words renders that impossible. They further set themselves up as the ultimate authority on the meaning of these two words and chide accepted official standards for not adopting their ÔÇ£authoritativeÔÇØ definition. Acceptable standards such as The Machinery's Handbooki, the various government and military parts standards, and ASMEii parts standards are among the typical standards we as engineers rely on.
    ^ This sounds right.

    I think language is important and naming things properly is critical to good communication.
    However, language evolves and meanings of words get caught up in common usage.
    When necessary, one can always be more specific.
    ie: Wood screw, Machine screw
    Mike Marr
    1978 Yamaha XS750 (Needs rings), 1996 BMW R1100RS, 2004 Honda CRF230F

  4. #19
    Registered User texasmule's Avatar
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    Reminds me of an old joke.

    Guy asks girl, "what's the difference between a bolt and a screw?"

    Girl replies, "I don't know, I've never been bolted"

    and yes, anti-seize works well. My bike is covered in it...
    Last edited by TexasMule; 01-03-2013 at 05:20 PM.

  5. #20
    RK Ryder
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    So being new to the mechanical world, could someone please give me examples of where to use ant-seize on my bikes?
    Paul
    Retired and riding my RTs, the '87 K100 & the '98 R1100 !
    Treasurer of the Forest City Motorrad Club #159
    Knights of the Roundel #333

  6. #21
    Registered User texasmule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_F View Post
    So being new to the mechanical world, could someone please give me examples of where to use ant-seize on my bikes?
    I'm sure Mr. Glaves will weigh in, but at a minimum, any non-aluminum "fastener" that goes into an aluminum hole and is 6mm or larger, usually gets anti-seize on my bike. I'm no chemist but "two different metals will set up a red/ox reaction when they are wet, especially when salt is present. The metal with the lower oxidation potential will corode, in this case the aluminum"

    I'll stand aside now and await the "experts"....

  7. #22
    Marine By Choice #188306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff488 View Post
    How 'bout "threaded fasteners"?
    That would cover screws, bolts, and nuts of any description as long as it had threads.

    Plus, we could call them "schraub-Verbindungselementen" when in secret club meetings.

    Or maybe not.
    Only if you know the secret handshake!

  8. #23
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    In the inch system bolts are 1/4 dia or larger. Screws are smaller than 1/4 inch.

    In the metric system they are called "threaded fasteners" or somthin' fancy......

    Special kudos from this retired mech engineer to the welder-poster above getting THAT stud out! He's the sort of guy we have to go to when we're really in a jam!
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  9. #24
    Registered User rxcrider's Avatar
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    recessed fracture

    Quote Originally Posted by DROOT153718 View Post
    Removing broken bolts are part of how i make my living. I'm a welder.

    This is an 04 ford V8 exhaust.




    David
    David, I'm not a welder, but I weld. I once thought I was brilliant for devising this method of broken bolt removal. I've since come to realize that I'm just smart enough to think of doing something that a lot of other folks were doing before I ever struck an arc. The photo above shows a broken stud with the fracture surface recessed in the hole. How do you go about getting a nut / bolt / screw welded to the broken stud without damaging the material the stud is threaded into? I've had success with flush fractures with a little damage to the surrounding material, but I've been afraid to tackle a recessed fracture. Thanks - Jonathan

  10. #25
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasMule View Post
    I'm sure Mr. Glaves will weigh in, but at a minimum, any non-aluminum "fastener" that goes into an aluminum hole and is 6mm or larger, usually gets anti-seize on my bike. I'm no chemist but "two different metals will set up a red/ox reaction when they are wet, especially when salt is present. The metal with the lower oxidation potential will corode, in this case the aluminum"

    I'll stand aside now and await the "experts"....
    Despite Tom Cutter's opinion about my tendency to over slather, I tend to be fairly conservative with the application of anti seize. I'll start with the fact that I always apply it to exhaust system fasteners that get hot. I even take exhaust header nuts off, clean the threads, and re-apply anti-seize at least once a year as part of an annual go-over. They didn't put that in the repair manual but it is good practice nonetheless.

    I NEVER put anti seize on wheel screws (bolts) or axle threads. These are steel-in-steel generally and I change tires often enough that corrosion here has never been a problem.

    I don't use it on small case fasteners or body fasteners. Where I think it is most important are those fasteners 8mm diameter or larger that need to be removed very occasionally and which have threads that are somewhat exposed to the elements. This means bolts with nuts and capscrews that go into threaded holes that are not blind holes - that is holes where the end of the hole is open.

    I will specifically point out the exhaust header nuts on the early oilhead bikes which were an open nut. Facing forward these were an open invitation of corrosion. Ditto the header nuts on classic K bikes, although these pointed downward. These are the ones that started me removing and re-treating once a year. Later oilheads came equipped with closed cap type nuts that are less prone to corrosion causing broken studs.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  11. #26
    Rally Rat
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    Rxcrider, The bolt (part of the stud) in post 16 top left is the piece that broke off leaving the rest in the hole. For the weld not sticking this head is aluminum. Just build a tit onto the bolt a small amount at a time. Keep going until you can get a nut on there and weld the nut to the tit.

    IMG_20121211_155209-L.jpg

    Thanks for the compliments.

    Here is a wheel lug nut I could not get off. I burned it out with an ARC AIR (carbon arc or gouge) No harm to the wheel, just replace the stud and lug nut.



    now it says one pic per post. ?

    David

  12. #27
    Rally Rat
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    011-L.jpg

    Tig gives more control,
    Utetic 680 stick rod will build up a stud and leave the flux around the outside so its not as easy to weld to the
    block. Time and patients are needed most. Don't rush, wait just the right amount of time for the welded nut to cool.

    I also have a complete set of cobalt left handed bits from 1/16" to 1/2"

    SOMETIMES drilling the stud or bolt or screw with a LH bit it will catch and screw the piece right out. Some times not.

    Why does a LAG bolt have wood screw threads?

    Why does an EYE bolt have NO Hex?


    Back to bikes.....

    I snapped off a stud in my 2000 R1100RT exhaust when I was rebuilding the motor (130,000 miles). Lucky for me it was no big deal, the piece I removed looked just like the rest above.


    David

  13. #28
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    I once knew a mechanic that would take bearing inner races off a flanged shaft with a cutting torch.
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

  14. #29
    Rally Rat
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    Done that gotta be careful.

    I remove OUTER races from blind holes, like the rear wheel bearing on my air head by welding a bead around the inside of it with a mig welder.

    The bearing heats, the weld cools and shrinks so the race almost falls out. This also preheats the hub to make it receptive to the new bearing I had in the freezer.

    Are we off topic yet?

    David

  15. #30
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DROOT153718 View Post

    Are we off topic yet?

    David
    I'm not sure. By the time I got here I forgot what the topic was.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

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