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Thread: Oil Filter Question

  1. #16
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    I'll throw out my previously stated "standard oil filter thread comment": that my sawmill's Kohler 15hp engine, my previous Toyota Tundra(V-8,2005) & my BMW 2003 R1150R all share the same oil filter.This of course varies with the source of your application chart. Seems the need for very specific filter performance covers a fairly wide spectrum? I have casually observed that filter size seems to vary , not with engine size or service but with who knows what criteria? I used to use a much longer filter on some of my trucks as the space was limitless. Then some rocket scientist(in one of these filter/oil threads) says that changes the system pressure. On my bike what I don't want is anything that protrudes below the engine farther than needed.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kantuckid View Post
    Then some rocket scientist(in one of these filter/oil threads) says that changes the system pressure.
    Changing the size (length) of an oil filter changes the system pressure?

    You might get a pressure drop across a filter and how much of a drop will depend on how clogged it is (assuming the bypass does not open).

  3. #18
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    How many of these vehicles or any others have you seen belly up because of (conclusive) oil filter failures?
    '03 R1150R, '03 F650GS, '97DR200SE,'78 Honda CT-90, '77Honda CT-90

  4. #19
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    Back when I rode a 79 XS750SF Yamaha triple, and was active in the y-triples forum community, a dude had catastrophic engine destruction when the internals of an (I believe it was orange) oil filter collapsed.
    After much growling and wringing of hands, the company which manufactured said oil filter paid for the rebuild of this "dude"s engine.
    What all was ingested to cause this oil starvation failure?...filter material and cardboard bits.
    I don't remember all of the technical details due to the fact that this was a decade and a half ago, but I was imprinted on the fact that quality of construction is perhaps as important as filtration abilities.
    I am not intending to besmirch any corporation that manufactures lubricant filtration devices, but this is the one and only example of filter failure of which I am aware.

    Additionally, I will only run Mahle filters in my '71 911 just because I don't want to anger the Teutonic gods...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tswaney View Post
    Back when I rode a 79 XS750SF Yamaha triple, and was active in the y-triples forum community, a dude had catastrophic engine destruction when the internals of an (I believe it was orange) oil filter collapsed.
    After much growling and wringing of hands, the company which manufactured said oil filter paid for the rebuild of this "dude"s engine.
    What all was ingested to cause this oil starvation failure?...filter material and cardboard bits.
    I don't remember all of the technical details due to the fact that this was a decade and a half ago, but I was imprinted on the fact that quality of construction is perhaps as important as filtration abilities.
    I am not intending to besmirch any corporation that manufactures lubricant filtration devices, but this is the one and only example of filter failure of which I am aware.

    Additionally, I will only run Mahle filters in my '71 911 just because I don't want to anger the Teutonic gods...
    Orange and made out of cardboard bits? Sounds like a Fram...Yikes!

    I don't think the Teutonic gods would be offended by a Mann or Bosch filter. Both are good quality and well constructed for less cost than Mahle.
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  6. #21
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    FWIW

    I used to run a filter test lab. The pressure drop across a functioning filter is quite low- so low that a filter length difference is of no practical consequence to that pressure drop in operating conditions.

    Filters plug exponentially, not linearly. Pressure drop increase is moderate until the filter has accumulated at least 3/4 of its maximum dirt load capability, then goes up at a rapidly increasing rate. All other things equal, a bigger filter can hold more dirt but this is also not of much consequence in normal use because it takes so much dirt to plug a filter there is no chance you'll get to that point with reasonable service intervals on a bike with an intact air filter and closed crankcase.

    BMW K wedge bikes have a couple factory filter sizes available. The longer one is a bloody nuisance to use so I use the short one. The reason they have the long one available I'm told was due to a couple bikes with clutch failures dumping too much clutch crude into the oil for the smaller filter but that is not a typical problem. Not relevant to R bikes with their separate tranny, either.

    Re those cheap Frams- I don't like cardboard end caps either but my biggest objection to that filter is its greatly reduced area of filtration material which of course equally reduces its dirt load capability. All you need to understand that is to count pleats- its a cheap piece of junk all the way around but can still do an OK job at protecting an engine that gets reasonable service intervals, as long as it doesn't come apart.

    My own filter choices come from those that a filter maker lists for the vehicle in question. All the makers have test labs and engineers for a reason and I don't second guess guys who do it for a living and have to stand behind their published info.

  7. #22
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    Orange and made out of cardboard bits? Sounds like a Fram...Yikes!

    I don't think the Teutonic gods would be offended by a Mann or Bosch filter. Both are good quality and well constructed for less cost than Mahle.

    Agreed... Mann and/or Bosch, excellent quality! And that goes for oil filters, fuel filters, air filters,...

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tswaney View Post
    I was imprinted on the fact that quality of construction is perhaps as important as filtration abilities.
    And on that note...


  9. #24
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    The first "competitor's filter" is obviously the Fram. Is the last one Bosch or Mann or ??? I don't recognize it.
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger 04 RT View Post
    If you read this article, Oil Filter Review and Tests, and believe it, you'd steer away from Fram and select Mobil1, Purolator or Bosch.
    I would not be so hasty bashing the PH6063, it's a totally different animal from the usual Frams. This one has an unpainted finish, weighs quite a bit and is manufactured in Austria. Not really sure of how this came to be in the Fram world, but I use it whenever I find it as it is less expensive than the Bosch, but it looks identical to me. Have I cut it in half, put it under an electron microscope, monitored the flow rates etc, no, but it works for me just fine.

    I know we all have an opinion, but I have not seen many vehicles on the side of the road due to a bad Fram filter. I imagine they make the majority of the quick lube badged filters and they seem to be working good enough. Sure, we can quote the articles showing how crappy they are, but are they good enough? I have well over a million miles on my vehicles (autos), typically using "generic" or whatever is on sale, and I always get well over 100,000 miles and have never unloaded a car due to engine issues.

    OK, bash away

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by id09542 View Post
    I would not be so hasty bashing the PH6063, it's a totally different animal from the usual Frams. This one has an unpainted finish, weighs quite a bit and is manufactured in Austria. Not really sure of how this came to be in the Fram world, but I use it whenever I find it as it is less expensive than the Bosch, but it looks identical to me. Have I cut it in half, put it under an electron microscope, monitored the flow rates etc, no, but it works for me just fine.

    I know we all have an opinion, but I have not seen many vehicles on the side of the road due to a bad Fram filter. I imagine they make the majority of the quick lube badged filters and they seem to be working good enough. Sure, we can quote the articles showing how crappy they are, but are they good enough? I have well over a million miles on my vehicles (autos), typically using "generic" or whatever is on sale, and I always get well over 100,000 miles and have never unloaded a car due to engine issues.

    OK, bash away
    Yep, we all have opinions for sure!

    Mine is that to ignore expert opinion and fact based science is just not logical.

    Cutting the Fram 6063 open after you are done with it would be really interesting. Check out how much filter surface area it has and how it is put together. It seems to be the most important aspect of filtration. You might also find that in this day of global out sourcing Fram does not even make that particular filter. A hacksaw and some rags might show why it's "good enough".

    Besides, cutting stuff open is great therapy for back yard scientists.
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  12. #27
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    Fram has been in business over 75 years. They must do something right.
    '03 R1150R, '03 F650GS, '97DR200SE,'78 Honda CT-90, '77Honda CT-90

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acejones View Post
    Fram has been in business over 75 years. They must do something right.
    Marketing.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Marketing.
    OK. Now _that's_ funny. Can't stop laughing up here...

    Happy New Year to you and Voni down in Texas Paul and hope to see you guys in Nakusp this year.

    And thanks for all the great advice you dish out for us to enjoy all year long!
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Marketing.
    It works, doesn't it.
    '03 R1150R, '03 F650GS, '97DR200SE,'78 Honda CT-90, '77Honda CT-90

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