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Thread: AAA Warning on Ethanol

  1. #46
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sloride View Post
    mouse nests can be hell . I had one that caught on fire in my old John Deere
    We had one of those old B's from the late 1930's that you could start with a hand wheel. Since the tractor didn't have a 3-point hitch it was pretty worthless, but tires were the only wear items. The air cleaner was a wad of wire screen at the end of an intake tube.

    New gas, old gas, even dirty gas, it really didn't matter. You poured it in and it burned. Once enough crap went thru the fuel system, you dropped the glass bowls on the fuel filter and cleaned them. These products were made for a world before our current pristine fuel standards......when "whatever you were lucky enough to get was good enough".

    So, in a world with folks in a tizzy about E10 or E15 in their lawn mower or Evinrude, I can only chuckle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    ...I doubt that E15, or E100 for that matter, would greatly impact me.
    Most every major automobile manufacturer around the world has issued warnings that warranties will be voided if E15 is used in their motors that are not rated for the stuff. (No such warning exists for E10.) There is near unanimity in those warnings, so there just might be something there that would impact you ...

    BTW, I once had a RAT nest in the valley of a V8 engine, but I lived near a cattle farm so it was a constant battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    ... So, in a world with folks in a tizzy about E10 or E15 in their lawn mower or Evinrude, I can only chuckle.
    Small engines seem to be a particular problem even with E10. My brother-in-law sells small engine stuff for a living (chainsaws, lawnmowers, etc) and by far their biggest headache is people bringing back top quality small engines that won't start or run right. Guess what the problem is ... yep, E10 ethanol and phase separation. They have started giving information to their customers on where to get ethanol free gas, plus they now have an additive that has just come out that helps (don't remember the name), plus, companies like STHIL and others go so far as to bottle ethanol free gas premixed with oil for 2 stroke motors for those customers who seldom use their small engines (ethanol gas that sits for a few weeks is the big culprit).

    I wouldn't want to be the one to go into my bro-in-laws place of business and try telling the numerous mechanics and salesman that all this noise over 10% ethanol in small engines is exaggerated ... BTW, many of the manufactures of small engines have issued similar warnings as the automobile manufacturers of voided warranties if E15 is used in their engines.
    Last edited by Norms 427; 12-25-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norms 427 View Post
    Most every major automobile manufacturer around the world has issued warnings that warranties will be voided if E15 is used in their motors that are not rated for the stuff. (No such warning exists for E10.) There is near unanimity in those warnings, so there just might be something there that would impact you ...
    Do me a favor and provide the links to the manufacturer websites that have these warnings?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post

    So, in a world with folks in a tizzy about E10 or E15 in their lawn mower or Evinrude, I can only chuckle.
    not sure why you'd be chuckling... none of your listed internal combustions are likely to be happy with E15.
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    Norm Norms 427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    Do me a favor and provide the links to the manufacturer websites that have these warnings?
    Start by watching this:

    http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/


    The following is from here:
    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...mage-your-car/

    When it comes to ethanol, AAA wants to keep things simple. At least until drivers are better educated.
    The American Automobile Association is asking the EPA to suspend sales of E15 gasoline because a survey of its members found that 95 percent of them donÔÇÖt know what it is and could unknowingly damage their cars as a result.

    E15, a mix of 85 percent gasoline and 15 percent ethanol, was recently approved for sale by the EPA as a way to increase the use of renewable fuels, but it comes with a caveat.
    While E10 (a 10 percent ethanol blend) is approved for nearly all gasoline-powered vehicles, by law E15 can be used only by cars and light trucks from the 2001 model year and later, because it could have an adverse affect on the engines and emissions systems of older vehicles. According to the Renewable Fuels Association, 62 percent of the vehicles on the road today are cleared to use it, and regulations require pumps dispensing E15 to be clearly labeled with this information, but AAA thinks more needs to be done.

    In a statement, AAAÔÇÖs President and CEO, Robert Darbelnet wrote that ÔÇ£the sale and use of E15 should be suspended until additional gas pump labeling and consumer education efforts are implemented to mitigate problems for motorists and their vehicles,ÔÇØ adding that ÔÇ£consumers should carefully read pump labels and know their auto manufacturerÔÇÖs recommendations to help prevent any problems from E15.ÔÇØ

    According to the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, those problems could include engine damage caused by the corrosive ethanol, even in the late model cars that the EPA says are good to go. The organization, which represents 12 major automakers, including Ford, GM and Chrysler, says its own long-term durability tests found that E15 could cause a host of issues for even newer cars, including misfires, increased emissions and costly damage to engine components like valve stems and cylinder heads.
    Its members seem to agree.

    Only flex-fuel vehicles designed to burn fuel blends that contain up to 85 percent ethanol, 2013 model year Fords, 2012 Model year GM cars and Porsches built since 2001 are specifically approved by their manufacturers to use E15. BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and Volkswagen have already said that their warrantees will not cover E15-related damage, while eight others, including Ford and GM, say E15 use may void coverage on unapproved cars. That leaves just 12 percent of the vehicles on the road fully compliant with E15, according to the Alliance. (underlined supplied)

    In July, a service station in Lawrence, Kansas, became the first in the nation to offer E15 and AAA says that only a handful of stations have followed suit, mostly in Corn Belt states, so it wants the EPA to act now before the fuel is widely adopted.

    Although EPA has not responded directly to AAA regarding the request, it has issued a statement saying it shares the associationÔÇÖs concerns over E15 awareness, but that the labels ÔÇ£will help ensure consumers are aware about which vehicles are approved for its use.ÔÇØ The head of the Renewable Fuels Association was less diplomatic. According to the Detroit News, the AssociationÔÇÖs president and CEO, Bob Dinneen, accused AAA of being the back pocket of the petroleum industry, saying that ÔÇ£the fact is E15 has been the most aggressively and comprehensively tested fuel in the history of the agency.ÔÇØ

    The EPA regulation does not mandate the sale of E15, but simply allows it. According to a report in the Wall Street Journal, many serviced station operators are taking a wait and see attitude before investing in the infrastructure needed to supply it.


    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...#ixzz2G7bZiiiZ
    Last edited by Norms 427; 12-26-2012 at 02:43 AM.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    not sure why you'd be chuckling... none of your listed internal combustions are likely to be happy with E15.
    OK, everything that was ever run thru a lawnmower or an Evinrude, especially those on some lake north of the Georgian Bay in the 1950's was burning the purest grade gasoline of unquestionable octane. What about those crappy Japanese pick-ups running around Africa or South America? What do you think they might be burning? It's something, with some amount of gasoline and who knows what octane.

    The internal combustion engine is a great thing. Insert something combustible and change the oil, it will likely last a good while. They've been doing it for more than 100-yrs

    For reference, my daily driver is a 23 year old car and my pick-up is 21 years old. Neither of which have ever had any engine service and we've been burning E10 since it's introduction. Yes, I also own a chain saw, a lawn mower, a lawn tractor (20-hp) and a small diesel tractor (25-hp). I pour the gas or diesel in and change the oil, they run. Keeping chains and blades sharp (constant maintenance) is a heck of a lot bigger hassle than engine repairs (never)

    Considering that 1 in 3 of us will develop cancer and many of those that reach old age will succumb to Alzheimer's, worrying about the theoretical potential damage from an ethanol and gasoline blend is pretty low on my list of fears
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norms 427 View Post
    Start by watching this:

    http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/


    The following is from here:
    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...mage-your-car/

    When it comes to ethanol, AAA wants to keep things simple. At least until drivers are better educated.
    The American Automobile Association is asking the EPA to suspend sales of E15 gasoline because a survey of its members found that 95 percent of them donÔÇÖt know what it is and could unknowingly damage their cars as a result.

    E15, a mix of 85 percent gasoline and 15 percent ethanol, was recently approved for sale by the EPA as a way to increase the use of renewable fuels, but it comes with a caveat.
    While E10 (a 10 percent ethanol blend) is approved for nearly all gasoline-powered vehicles, by law E15 can be used only by cars and light trucks from the 2001 model year and later, because it could have an adverse affect on the engines and emissions systems of older vehicles. According to the Renewable Fuels Association, 62 percent of the vehicles on the road today are cleared to use it, and regulations require pumps dispensing E15 to be clearly labeled with this information, but AAA thinks more needs to be done.

    In a statement, AAAÔÇÖs President and CEO, Robert Darbelnet wrote that ÔÇ£the sale and use of E15 should be suspended until additional gas pump labeling and consumer education efforts are implemented to mitigate problems for motorists and their vehicles,ÔÇØ adding that ÔÇ£consumers should carefully read pump labels and know their auto manufacturerÔÇÖs recommendations to help prevent any problems from E15.ÔÇØ

    According to the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, those problems could include engine damage caused by the corrosive ethanol, even in the late model cars that the EPA says are good to go. The organization, which represents 12 major automakers, including Ford, GM and Chrysler, says its own long-term durability tests found that E15 could cause a host of issues for even newer cars, including misfires, increased emissions and costly damage to engine components like valve stems and cylinder heads.
    Its members seem to agree.

    Only flex-fuel vehicles designed to burn fuel blends that contain up to 85 percent ethanol, 2013 model year Fords, 2012 Model year GM cars and Porsches built since 2001 are specifically approved by their manufacturers to use E15. BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and Volkswagen have already said that their warrantees will not cover E15-related damage, while eight others, including Ford and GM, say E15 use may void coverage on unapproved cars. That leaves just 12 percent of the vehicles on the road fully compliant with E15, according to the Alliance. (underlined supplied)

    In July, a service station in Lawrence, Kansas, became the first in the nation to offer E15 and AAA says that only a handful of stations have followed suit, mostly in Corn Belt states, so it wants the EPA to act now before the fuel is widely adopted.

    Although EPA has not responded directly to AAA regarding the request, it has issued a statement saying it shares the associationÔÇÖs concerns over E15 awareness, but that the labels ÔÇ£will help ensure consumers are aware about which vehicles are approved for its use.ÔÇØ The head of the Renewable Fuels Association was less diplomatic. According to the Detroit News, the AssociationÔÇÖs president and CEO, Bob Dinneen, accused AAA of being the back pocket of the petroleum industry, saying that ÔÇ£the fact is E15 has been the most aggressively and comprehensively tested fuel in the history of the agency.ÔÇØ

    The EPA regulation does not mandate the sale of E15, but simply allows it. According to a report in the Wall Street Journal, many serviced station operators are taking a wait and see attitude before investing in the infrastructure needed to supply it.


    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...#ixzz2G7bZiiiZ
    Foxnews doesn't manufacture cars. I asked for manufacturer websites which make the claim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    OK, everything that was ever run thru a lawnmower or an Evinrude, especially those on some lake north of the Georgian Bay in the 1950's was burning the purest grade gasoline of unquestionable octane. What about those crappy Japanese pick-ups running around Africa or South America? What do you think they might be burning? It's something, with some amount of gasoline and who knows what octane.
    Having driven in South Africa (don't have experience in the rest of Africa except what I've seen on Long Way Down) I couldn't find a pump listed with anything lower than 93 octane, most ranging up to 97 most of the time. Course, don't know if the compression of any vehicle I drove there could care less about the high octane.

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    This reported from Bell Performance, Oct, 2012.- gee, it sounds a lot like what Fox reported:
    This week, Ford and GM announced that they have approved the use of gasoline blends containing up to 15% ethanol for use in their later model cars and light trucks. This means the makers who produce more than a third of the cars and trucks on the road are pushing forward in linking 15% ethanol gas to their vehicles. The Japanese automakers Honda and Toyota and Nissan have not commented yet or taken an official position. It is also notable that Chrysler is resisting the change, advising through their owner's manuals that only ethanol gas blends up to E10 should be used in Chrysler vehicles.

    Most auto manufacturers have opposed the blend, warning that gassing up with it will void their vehicle warranties. The auto industry has called for more testing of the new fuel, concerned about the effect a higher concentration of alcohol might have on vehicle engines. Indeed, the rejection of a legal challenge in August by the automakers to E15 appears to have paved the way for a change in their stance towards ethanol. GM is now approving E15 use in 2012 and 2013 model vehicles. Ford approves E15 use in the new 2013 models and, when asked, will admit that they will allow E15 use also in vehicles from 2010, 2011 and 2012.

    But it's notable that the consensus among automakers is that they don't like E15 use in vehicles older than 2010. This is in contrast to the EPA's approval of the fuel in 2007 and later models. So who's right? GM will tell you that they don't like 15% ethanol in vehicles prior to 2010 because they performed specific tests with the ethanol blends in a variety of vehicles and found that E15 damages engines in those vehicles from model years 2001 to 2011.

    When pressed, GM's recommendation is to consult your owner's manual for your particular vehicle. But since said owner's manuals only recommend ethanol use up to E10, that's GM's roundabout way of telling you not to use E15 without really telling you so.
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    From the Star Tribune:

    A new blend of ethanol and gasoline may soon show up at the gas station pumps -- along with mixed messages on whether it's safe to put it in your vehicle.

    Motorists driving up to pumps for the new, higher-ethanol "E15" will see government-mandated orange-and-black signs that say the new fuel blend is approved for use in all 2001 and newer cars and light trucks.

    Two of the biggest carmakers offer puzzling or contrary messages, right on their gasoline caps. Toyota warns on its 2012 model gas caps not to use E15. Ford offers less-explicit advice.

    "When you pull up to the pump it will say you can use this, and then you turn to your gas cap, it says you may not use this -- it's going to be very, very confusing," said Bob Ebert, service director for Walser Automotive Group in the Twin Cities.
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    More from the Star Tribune article

    In Congress, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., is pushing a bill to halt introduction of E15 and conduct more research. "I think this is outrageous," he said. "The government is telling consumers to use a product that the manufacturer of their car says will ... void the warranty."

    E15, the blend of 15 percent alcohol and 85 percent gasoline, has undergone considerable testing -- enough for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to grant a "waiver" allowing its use in newer cars and light trucks.

    Stations in Iowa and Kansas could begin selling E15 in May, said Bob Dinneen, president and CEO of the Renewable Fuels Association, an ethanol trade association. He insists that consumers needn't worry.

    "E15 is probably the single most studied fuel in the history of EPA waivers," Dinneen said.

    'Up to E10 gasoline only'

    The auto industry doesn't share that confidence.

    Most automakers, including General Motors and Chrysler, have not placed explicit E15 warnings on their gas caps. Still, the auto industry is part of a broad legal challenge to stop E15.

    "We have opposed pushing E15 into the marketplace without adequate testing," said Gloria Bergquist, vice president of communications for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group representing 12 automakers including Ford, GM, Chrysler and Toyota.

    Toyota decided about a year ago to add an E15 gas-cap message that says "Up to E10 gasoline only."

    "Our vehicles aren't backward compatible with E15, and we didn't know when it was going to hit the market," said Toyota spokeswoman Cindy Knight. "We don't want customers to damage their vehicles. It would not be covered under warranty."

    Ford's ethanol message on its gas portal -- its vehicles don't have caps -- dates to 2006. The idea was to warn motorists not to fill up with high-ethanol blends of E20 to E85 at pumps meant for flexible-fuel vehicles, said Cynthia Williams, Ford's environmental policy manger.

    The message doesn't mention E15, only because it wasn't a commonly sold blend for flex vehicles, she said. As E15 begins to be sold for conventional vehicles, the message could add to motorists' confusion. Ford is considering changing it, she said.

    "Ford does not support the use of E15 in legacy vehicles," said Williams, who advised people to consult their owner's manual about the proper fuel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    What model of vehicles does the star tribune manufacture?
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurdent View Post
    Having driven in South Africa (don't have experience in the rest of Africa except what I've seen on Long Way Down) I couldn't find a pump listed with anything lower than 93 octane, most ranging up to 97 most of the time. Course, don't know if the compression of any vehicle I drove there could care less about the high octane.
    Research Octane, motor Octane or Anti-knock index? I would guess you were seeing a Research Octane Number, so the 97 was equivalent to our 91 AKI (premium)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    What model of vehicles does the star tribune manufacture?
    dude. no manufacturer publishes their own news reports without them going out thru a news outlet. you're old enough to have a license, so you should be old enough to understand that. so even tho that paper quotes Ford and Toyota directly, it's still not good enough for ya?

    So i gotta ask- are you trying to be difficult on this, are you a shill for the "renewable energy" lobby, or are you just plain dense?

    really, i apologize for being blunt (and flirting with insulting), but your protests about credibility of source of info have gone from "questioning" to just plain "obstinate".
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