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Thread: AAA Warning on Ethanol

  1. #31
    Registered User rxcrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyD View Post
    That's exactly one of my points. The fuel systems are already designed to tolerate alcohol in the mix. How likely is it the designers of those systems specified for an absolute max at 10%. O rings, gaskets, seals, plastic parts, etc. that will survive 10% will fail at 15%? Not likely IMO.



    Here you're talking about variables and contaminants and they can never be accounted for. Modern fuel systems are isolated from the atmosphere so water take up by the ethanol should not be significant.
    Components which were designed to survive for a reasonable period of time in E10 may fail sooner in E15.

    Water absorption can occur before you pump a drop into your tank and no fuel system is isolated from the atmosphere. If it was, you'd have a vaccuum in your tank as soon as you started riding. Outside air filling the void in the tank as fuel is consumed may be filtered through a carbon canister, but that doesn't remove humidity.

    If you have a fuel injected engine with a closed loop system that was designed to run on E10, it can probably accomodate E15 without too much trouble. If the design was marginal and you were maxing out the trim, fuel injector flow or pump capacity with E10, E15 may push you over the edge. Open loop and carbureted engines may require modification to run properly on E15. Unfortunately, those modifications may be illegal.

    Fuel pumps, injectors and intake valves are lubricated by fuel. Ethanol provides less lubrication than other gasoline components and may reduce component life as the percentage is increased.

    E15 isn't an absolute evil, but it will cause issues for some engines. Don't assume that if an engine was certified to run on E10 that it was optimized for it. It may have already been on the edge at 10% and 15% ethanol may push it over.
    Last edited by rxcrider; 12-13-2012 at 06:35 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
    ... It may have already been on the edge and 5% more ethanol may push it over.
    Actually, E15 has 50% more ethanol than E10.
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  3. #33
    shandeland DHANDELAND's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRIDER View Post
    I finally clicked on the link for "pure-gas" then BC, the province I live in. I guess I can believe that ALL Shell 91 octane contains no ethanol in my home province. If true, that is good to know as my bike supposedly prefers "premium."

    I guess I can also believe that ALL Chevron 94 octane contains no ethanol in BC. (NO other stations offer 94 octane in BC.)

    What I found unbelieveable was that the 100 Mile House Chevron (this is a very small town well away from population centers) ALONE offers ethanol-free gas in 87, 89, and 92 octane! They send a truck (or is that FOUR trucks, one for each octane?) to service the discerning folk in this small town?

    Somebody help me out here.
    What I have been told is that the driver mixes the ethanol in at time of delivery. The tanker truck has multiple compartments with different octanes and 100 % ethanol.
    Remember to thank the owner of the station from which you purchase pure gas.
    Steve

  4. #34
    Registered User rickyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MARKAZ View Post
    Actually, E15 has 50% more ethanol than E10.
    True. And if it went from 1% to 2% ethanol then that would be a 100% increase.
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  5. #35
    Registered User rxcrider's Avatar
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    I reworded it

  6. #36
    Nardowell nardowell's Avatar
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    It take more energy to produce ethanol than the energy you get from it.

    It takes energy to produce the fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, corn seed and transport it. It takes energy to plant, harvest and transport the corn. Then it takes a lot of energy to transform the corn into ethanol and then transport it.

    It has made land owners rich. Land in our area that was selling for $3,000 an acre before ethanol is now worth $14,000.

    If you took the government ethanol subsides away that big companies and farm organizations lobbied for, it would not be profitable and would go away.

    Let's hope.
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  7. #37
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHANDELAND View Post
    What I have been told is that the driver mixes the ethanol in at time of delivery. The tanker truck has multiple compartments with different octanes and 100 % ethanol.
    Remember to thank the owner of the station from which you purchase pure gas.
    Steve
    Thank you, Steve. You also raise a huge question: can a single gas station simply say "no ethanol in any of our tanks?" Even if they had to pay a slightly higher price for "pure gas" which would certainly be passed on to us consumers, if they advertised it as getting better mileage and fewer other problems for both car and bike drivers, I think in a few years ethanol would be a thing of the past.

    But I thought this was a federally mandated thing.

    Clearly I'm confused. Again, if you can, help me out.
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  8. #38
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    go to www.pure-gas.org & click on about this site for your answers. A bunch around me are too busy gouging at anywhere from 10-30+ cents per gallon right now too want to tie up a tank in the interest of the small bike/boat crowd.
    As of 12/26/12 the gouge is still on with a 35 cent spread in price in my area.
    Last edited by kantuckid; 12-26-2012 at 01:48 PM.

  9. #39
    Registered User arthurdent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nardowell View Post

    It has made land owners rich. Land in our area that was selling for $3,000 an acre before ethanol is now worth $14,000.
    The land's value hasn't increased - the cost has. It hasn't made the landowners as wealthy as might seem because they're paying a lot more in taxes and have to borrow more to pay for everything involved due to the inflationary aspects of the "energy boom".

    Quote Originally Posted by nardowell View Post
    If you took the government ethanol subsides away that big companies and farm organizations lobbied for, it would not be profitable and would go away.

    Let's hope.


    Just like the housing "boom" of the 90s and early 2Ks - price inflation makes any "real" increase meaningless because it's all on paper and when the bottom drops...duck.

  10. #40
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHANDELAND View Post
    What I have been told is that the driver mixes the ethanol in at time of delivery. The tanker truck has multiple compartments with different octanes and 100 % ethanol.
    Remember to thank the owner of the station from which you purchase pure gas.
    Steve
    We have a member who works/worked at a distribution terminal who has responded a few times on this subject...hopefully he will add some insight.

    I have been within rock throwing distance of the facilitiy while working with the power company in Austin and watched different companies tankers pulling up to the same bays to load up.
    The base fuel is blended AT the terminal...with ethanol and whatever "additive" each big boy markets, think Techron being one. The tankers do not carry it seperately. Marathon Refinery ( one I know of near Galveston) makes a generic gasoline and most use it as a base.
    My dad was in the petrochemical business most of his adult life, so we got to hear about it...a lot Also growing up and working along the gulf coast among all the refineries made one ask a lot of questions of who makes what?


    this is from a report by these folks:

    http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/...s/ethanol.html



    How is ethanol fuel transported, stored and distributed?

    Most of California's current ethanol fuel supply is delivered from the producing states via standard rail tank cars, with some import shipments via marine vessels. It is then stored at fuel terminals and added to gasoline when tank trucks are filled for delivery to fueling stations, where it is stored and dispensed the same as non-ethanol gasoline.

    E85 dispensers require use of upgraded materials compatible with ethanol's chemical properties. Also, due to certain ethanol properties, fuel transport pipelines in the United States do not currently ship ethanol or gasoline containing ethanol, although experience in Brazil and elsewhere indicates that pipeline shipment can be feasible. To prevent diversion for human consumption, federal regulations require ethanol produced for fuel use to have a denaturant (usually gasoline) added before shipping.
    Steve Henson
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  11. #41
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRIDER View Post
    But I thought this was a federally mandated thing.

    Clearly I'm confused. Again, if you can, help me out.
    Aren't we all? My understanding here in TX is all stations in counties adjacent to a large megapolis like Houston, San Antonio, Dallas/Ft Worth have to comply with Fed air standards...which means ethanol blends. I live in a very rural county...but it touches Travis CO where Austin is...we get ethanol only as a choice. I can go further west and find non ethanol , but it is slowly being leveraged out. I like my corn in tortillas BTW
    Steve Henson
    SABMWRA MOA Club#62's Flat Fixer/ current forum moderator
    It's not the breaths you take, but the moments that take your breath away-D.Dillon/G. Strait

  12. #42
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    A friend of mine has his own storage tank like the farmers used to have. He buys gas directly off the truck. They are telling him it is 100% gasoline, no ethanol.

    Also I have been told by a few wrenches that Star Tron is supposed to help with the ethanol.

    A local snowmobile dealer a few years back bought a meter that will give the percentage of ethanol. When he checked all the local stations the % was all over the board with hardly any @ the 10%.
    Phil

  13. #43
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  14. #44
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Ya know..........

    Hmmm.........considering that I waited until 100K to change the sparkplugs in my 91 Toyota 4WD Pick-up and the real issue was the mouse nest in the air box...............I doubt that E15, or E100 for that matter, would greatly impact me.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    Hmmm.........considering that I waited until 100K to change the sparkplugs in my 91 Toyota 4WD Pick-up and the real issue was the mouse nest in the air box...............I doubt that E15, or E100 for that matter, would greatly impact me.
    mouse nests can be hell . I had one that caught on fire in my old John Deere
    Anthony S.
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