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Thread: Sandy

  1. #46
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommcgee View Post
    Hey Don, dunno how to fix it, but ten years ago I took a plane ride from Providence to Baltimore right down the coast and could not believe the development. All I could think about then was what would and did happen during this storm.

    People will obviously want to rebuild but why would they when it could easily happen again in their lifetimes? Should the cities and towns issue building permits? I've seen plenty of this type of coastal damage in Massachusetts. Some towns actually did refuse to issue permits in certain places, but it's nowhere near the scale facing New Jersey.

    Hang in there, man, I know we dodged a big one in Massachusetts.
    Thanks Tommy,

    My thoughts were a policy that some governments have adopted:

    On flood prone areas - a one time buyout offer from the government, who then levels the buildings and lets the property do what it may. This has been done along some river flood areas in NJ. If the people don't take the buyout - they are on their own the next time it floods. In some cases people are allowed to continue to live on the property with a lifetime lease from the government. They are responsible for all the costs of maintaining the property, and insuring against liability, but if the home is damaged beyond a certain point, the lease is terminated and the government can level the property.

    Turns out that this is actually economically sensible - the cost of buying and removing the risky property from the market is less then repeatedly helping assist the owners in rebuilding it.

    Seems a logical policy to follow, and I'd like to see it offered with the current damaged properties in NJ. Unfortunately - a lot of people won't accept it, but in that case it must be clear the government isn't going to continue assisting them in rebuilding in a location where the same scenerio plays out time after time. I was looking at the government photos (before/after) of the NJ coast, and in many cases where flooding occurred before is exactly where it happened this time. Inlets between the coastal bays/rivers and the ocean have opened in much the same spots - then been filled in and rebuilt on - many times even in my lifetime.

    That's one solution. Problem is - much of the damage seen from Sandy is in locations where there have been houses for well over 100 years - that survived this long without damage or flooding. What to do in these cases? Dunno. If you accept that some form of climate change is occurring and these sort of storms are going to become more frequent then the choice may be to improve coastal storm protection, lessen the population density, build smarter, or choose to do nothing and let the free market select what happens. Usually the latter is what happens, with the result that we continue along the same path that got us where we are today. It's probably the most attractive for local politicians because no politician wants to be known as the one who reduced the value of the area they are elected from. It might actually take a politician concerned with what's right rather then what will get them re-elected for this to happen, so I don't really expect that to ever happen.

    Best,
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
    Spring Lk Heights NJ NJ Shore BMW Riders New Sweden BMW Riders
    '07 R1200R (current ride) and some bimmers.. and a Porsche

  2. #47
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    To all my Jersey Brothers and Sisters...My heart goes out to you all my fellow affected riders and anyone else in the Shore area. I lived in Jersey For MANY Years, in Bricktown. The day before Sandy I road down to Point Pleasant. It was an awesome ride, I will always love The ride down the Delaware river in PA and across into NJ and southeast to the beach... The destruction is devastating...SeaSide... I crossed the 35 bridge into Point Plesant just the day Before...Crazy... I will always have NJ with me, and I will always Ride to the Shore...Its Awesome, I will be back along with Many others and So will the Shore.
    I am Jersey Proud...and will always Be So. Here are some shots I have of the Before.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadkill601 View Post
    To all my Jersey Brothers and Sisters...My heart goes out to you all my fellow affected riders and anyone else in the Shore area. I lived in Jersey For MANY Years, in Bricktown. The day before Sandy I road down to Point Pleasant. It was an awesome ride, I will always love The ride down the Delaware river in PA and across into NJ and southeast to the beach... The destruction is devastating...SeaSide... I crossed the 35 bridge into Point Plesant just the day Before...Crazy... I will always have NJ with me, and I will always Ride to the Shore...Its Awesome, I will be back along with Many others and So will the Shore.
    I am Jersey Proud...and will always Be So. Here are some shots I have of the Before.
    More.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadkill601 View Post
    More.
    Frankies
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadkill601 View Post
    Frankies
    From the Beach Looking inland 1 mile south of Jenkins
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadkill601 View Post
    From the Beach Looking inland 1 mile south of Jenkins
    The Shipwreck
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  7. #52
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    Sandy Did Lost of Trail damage

    I was out on my F800 Today.. Riddig in the Pocono Area. Lots of damage to the trails around here. But I was able to make it through. Some of the Dirt roads had bad ruts and trees still down.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadkill601 View Post
    I was out on my F800 Today.. Riddig in the Pocono Area. Lots of damage to the trails around here. But I was able to make it through. Some of the Dirt roads had bad ruts and trees still down.
    More...
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadkill601 View Post
    More...
    A big burn helped me out a bit...
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  10. #55
    Unfunded content provider tommcgee's Avatar
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    Salty Fog Rally 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012, AND LOOKING FORWARD TO 2014!

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  11. #56
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    It is obvious, and almost always the case that the residents are the victims. It is primarily the local governments and some businesses that have dropped or hidden the ball for years and years. As early as 1974 most flood hazard areas were identified and attempts were made to encourage local governments to use rudimentary controls. That failed. Later the federally subsidized flood insurance program required local governments to limit development in flood hazard areas or the entire community would not be eligible for flood insurance. Developers and local governments found many creative ways around these rules. Using Katrina as an example - current law says that if a property is substantially damaged (more than 50% of pre-flood value) it cannot be rebuilt unless elevated above the flood hazard elevation or flood proofed to that elevation. The kicker is that as of just a few years ago they were still using 1938 meteorology data to set those elevations. Whoops! So in New Orleans we see houses going on stilts but some being rebuilt with waivers.

    Anybody who lives in a community that had flooding ought to go downtown and ask to see the Flood Plain Ordinance and ask what if any waivers have been granted in the past ten years.

    Compared to most developed European and Asian countries our power grid is a mess. A few years ago one line sagged into one tree in Ohio and the resulting cascade of shutdowns caused power out in almost the entire Northeast. It is a little better now, but we still have a mid-20th century grid for the 21st century. Whoever thought underground substations in flood prone areas was smart needs to rethink their logic. And the sad thing is that unless there is massive investment (which will raise electric bills a lot) it will take decades to improve the situation much.

    Not directly related to Sandy (yet, but wait) it is a fact that 70% of the bridges in this country are rated structurally deficient, and the number keeps climbing every year. Our next "Minneapolis I-35" disaster is not a matter of if, it is only a matter of when. But as citizens a majority insists on lower taxes so the states and localities absolutely lack the ability to raise the funds needed to fix or replace worn out bridges 20 years past their planned life cycle.

    I feel fairly safe on most bridges when on my motorcycle, but shudder when crossing some of them meeting loaded semi trucks. I figure I am unlikely to take the bridge out but don't know about the trucks.

    Right now we need immediate relief for the victims of Sandy. But then instead of settling into our less is more and everything is roses viewpoints, as a society we need to figure out how to address decades long infrastructure neglect. I'm fairly sure that in a few enlightened spots we might, but in the main we won't.
    Voni picked a darn smart spouse.
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  12. #57
    04 1150RS bigsur52's Avatar
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    I owe an apology to Tommcgee for my nasty toned response to his complaint about the NHC not issuing a hurricane warning to the northeast. The science section of today's new york times has an article about just that.

    So, please accept my apology. I was wrong. Hmphhh.
    "all things in moderation - including moderation"

  13. #58
    Unfunded content provider tommcgee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsur52 View Post
    I owe an apology to Tommcgee for my nasty toned response to his complaint about the NHC not issuing a hurricane warning to the northeast. The science section of today's new york times has an article about just that.

    So, please accept my apology. I was wrong. Hmphhh.
    No offense taken, really, it was a strange (and rare) situation.
    Salty Fog Rally 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012, AND LOOKING FORWARD TO 2014!

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  14. #59
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Wow, we took a week and a half off in NW Arkansas and unplugged from the news. Last we heard was it was crossing Cuba.

    Seeing the damage last night on the TV brought back lot's of memories having both worked for large power companies and having been a home owner on a barrier island suffering several damaging storms before finally cutting my 45 year ties to it. My mother gave up in 1983 with hurricane Alecia and it's house exploding tornadoes ...one that levelled ours.

    I called it quits a few years after Ike in 2008 as the insurance fights and all the new tighter rules to cut their losses hamper the homeowners. The definition of flood,storm surge, and water damage is mind boggling. I had a lot of insurance but still a hassle putting things back to normal.

    My heart goes out to the folks who suffered losses and to the weather hampered recovery teams. You don't put a system back together that is damaged like that in a few days. Just remember the power lineman are doing all they can in a short time with some suffering customers whose patience is thinner every hour.It's a hard mix to get it all done swiftly and safely.

    And to see older homes that had not ever been in a storm path completely gone from their slabs is indeed heartbreaking. Coastal subsidence and changing weather patterns are redefining flood plains for sure.
    Steve Henson
    SABMWRA MOA Club#62's Flat Fixer/ current forum moderator
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  15. #60
    Outlander Omega Man's Avatar
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    While Paul, Don and others have some good points- it's really good to have a plan.
    Here in the East, the infrastructure is old and the population density is high. If you compile all that with the expectations that "someone else" will clean up after you...your gonna' need a lot of patience.
    Another example is from Indianapolis. "They" say they don't know what caused it...I know what fueled it.
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/11/us/ind...ode/index.html
    RIP to the fatalities, everybody- be careful and aware. OM
    "Well they say.. time loves a hero but only time will tell.. If he's real, he's a legend from heaven If he ain't he was sent here from hell" Lowell George
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