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Thread: Not another Oil thread....really (Camguard)

  1. #16
    Registered User MOTOR31's Avatar
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    A&P here with both aircraft and motorcycle experience.

    There is a pretty significant difference in use for the average aircraft owner and motorcycle owner. The plane can and often does sit idle, outside or in a shadeport for some time. It is not uncommon for the plane to be idle for weeks after being flown. The engines are also built to much looser standards than even the old airheads were. That's because of the materials used and the expected expansion they get when they get warmed up. They are also built using 1940's through 1950's tech. Open breather tubes into the crankcase are a good example. They will have a simple breather tube that has no valve in it so air can and does move into the engine. If you are in a severe climate area like say Florida and the bird is stored outside, then you might want to insure that you do what you can to prevent corrosion.

    On the other hand, aircraft engines rarely have bottom end problems. The rings and valves are more trouble prone. Aircraft oil already has a good percentage of additives, enough so that when breaking in an engine, either new or from overhaul, it is recommended that you use straight mineral oil made without wear additives for the first 25 to 50 hours of active engine operation, to help the rings seat. Once that is done then use regular oil. This helps prevent the cylinders from getting glazed where the rings never fully seal and the engine uses an excessive amount of oil.

    In regards to motorcycle engines, even for those who store the bike, the additive may have some benefit. If you use the bike regularly in the riding season there is no need for the stuff. When you put the bike to bed for the winter, warm it up then change the oil and filter. Put the additive in and ride the bike a few miles well into normal temperatures (say 20 or so miles) then put it away. Don't forget the gas treatment unless you drain the tank and fuel system.

    Frankly I wouldn't use anything like this stuff for normal motorcycle operation. If you drive it regularly, the insides are not going to lose the coating of oil and have a corrosion problem. "Pickling" the engine for storage it's not a bad idea and spending 12 bucks a year is not that expensive. Then again you could also do like the military did back in the recip days and pull the plugs, squirting a bit of oil into each cylinder then rotate the prop manually a few turns to spread it around then replace the plugs.
    DEFINITION OF A VETERAN A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35634 View Post
    Seems like a fix for something that ain't broke, at least on motorcycles.
    Ditto.
    Howard Edwards

    2009 R1200GS; 1975 R75/6

  3. #18
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    Now, back to our regular broadcast channel.
    '03 R1150R, '03 F650GS, '97DR200SE,'78 Honda CT-90, '77Honda CT-90

  4. #19
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35634 View Post
    Seems like a fix for something that ain't broke ...
    This pretty much describes ALL liquid solutions, don't you think?
    Kent Christensen
    21482
    '12 R1200RT, '02 R1100S, '84 R80G/S

  5. #20
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motor31 View Post
    There is a pretty significant difference in use for the average aircraft owner and motorcycle owner.
    Well, for one thing, aircraft engines (reciprocating) are mostly all 1940s designs.

    Are detergent motor oils allowed yet?

    Are they now affixing decals to the effect the igntion system can kill you?
    Kent Christensen
    21482
    '12 R1200RT, '02 R1100S, '84 R80G/S

  6. #21
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    If I was worried at all about condensate issues (I'm not), I'd fog the cylinder we like used to with 2 stroke outboards for the winter. Hurts nothing, simple, cheap.

  7. #22
    Registered User MOTOR31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    Well, for one thing, aircraft engines (reciprocating) are mostly all 1940s designs.

    Are detergent motor oils allowed yet?

    Are they now affixing decals to the effect the igntion system can kill you?
    Yup the recips are old designs even requiring lead in the gas. Detergent aviation oils have been available for decades. That's why the recommendation to use straight mineral oil for break in. They have had synthetic oils as well, very very pricey.

    No warning about the ignition danger. Frankly since that big spinny thing in front, or to the sides or even in the back is more likely to get you I doubt a warning label is really much of a need. I've been "bitten" by a distributor but never by a mag.
    DEFINITION OF A VETERAN A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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  8. #23
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    Years ago I had a job helping a aircraft mechanic. Mostly doing all the work while he drank beer. Lots of beer. One engine that was overhauled had chrome cylinder bores.

    I remembered we filled it with 40 wt non detergent, tied it down good, fired it up and went to full throttle after less than a minute at idle. It sat there at full power for about 30 minutes before we shut it down. He swore the rings would never break in any other way. Impressive noise, no muffler and the prop alone was loud.

    I think the dust we stirred up in his hanger had something to do with break in too. The engine had no air filter, only a screen and a valve to draw in air over an hot exhaust pipe when at altitude to prevent carb looking alternator and starter, but at 20 times the cost.

    AFAIK, the engine was fine, I used to see the plane flying around once and a while. I do not remember what kind of engine. I do remember dual magneto ignition and some sort of really primitive carb. Really more of a fuel sprayer. It required the pilot to tune the fuel for the correct mixture, it was a really crude thing. Lawnmowers have better carburetors.

    Rod

  9. #24
    Registered User MOTOR31's Avatar
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    Rod, lawnmowers don't deal with a spread of altitude that may run from sea level to 12,000 feet either. Adjusting the mixture allows for peak performance and to avoid fouling plugs. If the mixture were not adjusted it would get progressively richer the higher you went. Mixture control also allows you to use fuel to help cool the engine under full power applications like take off.

    Carbs ain't complicated and they just have one job, help mix fuel and air for the engine. Some of the injection systems in use on aircraft recips aren't really any more complicated and also have mixture controls. They just move the fuel spray from a central location to just in front of the intake valve and they are constantly spraying.
    DEFINITION OF A VETERAN A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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  10. #25
    Registered User f14rio's Avatar
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    engine failure

    or premature engine failure due to the wrong oil.


    pretty sure i never heard of one.
    "Enemy fighters at 2 o'clock!...Roger, What should i do until then?"

    2010 r1200r, 2009 harley crossbones, 2008 triumph/sidecar, 1970 norton commando 750

  11. #26
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    More engines have failed from lack of oil than from wrong oil.
    '03 R1150R, '03 F650GS, '97DR200SE,'78 Honda CT-90, '77Honda CT-90

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by f14rio View Post
    or premature engine failure due to the wrong oil.


    pretty sure i never heard of one.
    maybe not total failure, but certainly premature wearing out of component parts from incorrect oil.. yeah, that happens.
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  13. #28
    Registered User f14rio's Avatar
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    not meaning to be a wise arse but

    can you cite a documented example?
    thx,
    ed
    "Enemy fighters at 2 o'clock!...Roger, What should i do until then?"

    2010 r1200r, 2009 harley crossbones, 2008 triumph/sidecar, 1970 norton commando 750

  14. #29
    Left Coast Rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by f14rio View Post
    can you cite a documented example?
    thx,
    ed
    Well, this isn't documented but a few years ago while running in a national car racing series with a spec motor, the engine builder who did all the motors for the series could tell which ones were running a particular name brand premium-priced oil versus those which weren't. The ones not running that oil needed many more parts replaced at rebuild time.

    Anecdotal yes, but that was our practical in-the-field experience.

  15. #30
    RAINEY 187132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1100S View Post
    Well, this isn't documented but a few years ago while running in a national car racing series with a spec motor, the engine builder who did all the motors for the series could tell which ones were running a particular name brand premium-priced oil versus those which weren't. The ones not running that oil needed many more parts replaced at rebuild time.

    Anecdotal yes, but that was our practical in-the-field experience.

    Jason
    Grand rapids, MI
    2012 BMW R1200RT

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