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Thread: The Wethead has arrived....

  1. #76
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr_Eugen View Post
    Paul,
    I'd appreciate YOUR analysis of the difference/benefits of the old vs. new rather than a restatement of the BMW promo...
    Well, since the bike just debuted and the press kit was a few hours old when I posted that it seemed newsworthy at the time. Like most of us, I have not seen the bike, touched the bike, or of course ridden the bike.

    Purely from an observational perspective there are some elements of the design that I see as leaps forward.

    1. The wet clutch at the front of the engine means the bike doesn't have to be half disassembled to replace a clutch and there should be no need for clutch hub spline lubrication.

    2. The top to bottom mixture flow with fewer bends in the intake/exhaust path should improve efficiency.

    3. Cruise control is a big plus.

    4. I think the water cooling is a big plus.

    There are some things I wonder about.

    1. Cylinders cast as part of the block. Would I have to split the cases to replace worn rings?

    2. Is the permanent magnet alternator as prone to stator problems as the F twins seem to be?

    3. Will there be clearance to do that simple up-front clutch replacement, or does the whole front end need to come off to remove the front cover?

    These are just top-of-the-head observations. Once I see the bike, and once a bunch of folks get a bunch of miles, we'll know more.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #77
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    Paul,
    Those are interesting insights. As you point out, only time will tell. Unfortunately, its the buyers that will be the beta testers.
    '03 R1150R, '03 F650GS, '97DR200SE,'78 Honda CT-90, '77Honda CT-90

  3. #78
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acejones View Post
    Paul,
    Those are interesting insights. As you point out, only time will tell. Unfortunately, its the buyers that will be the beta testers.
    That is always true. I do have to say that we have had good results with 1st year bikes. My original K75T was a first year bike, albeit following a couple years of the K100. My F650 Funduro was a 1st year bike and Voni's R1100RS was a first year Oilhead - very first year like one of the first 6 into the U.S.

    The K75 was almost trouble free in its 370,000 miles. The R1100RS had an early transmission issue - replaced under warranty - but that was about it for "issues" in its 360,000 miles.

    But I do understand the beta bike issue - we just haven't been bitten (yet).
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
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  4. #79
    What, me worry? GILLY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    But I do understand the beta bike issue - we just haven't been bitten (yet).
    Owning a wedge 4, good training.
    87 K75S, bought new, now sold
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  5. #80
    Norm Norms 427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    There are some things I wonder about.

    1. Cylinders cast as part of the block. Would I have to split the cases to replace worn rings?
    I'm shocked to learn that ... and it seems like a dumb idea. It seems to negate at least one of the inherent advantages of the boxer engine.

    I like the idea of the traditional boxers where u can pull a jug in a jiffy, just like an old air cooled VW or Lycoming / Continental aircraft motor.
    Now: '12 R1200RT Midnight Blue Metallic / '11 Ural Patrol 2WD ridden to Alaska / '09 KLR 650 / '05 HD Heritage Softail / '08 Harley Sportster 1200C / '85 Yamaha VMax bought new. I wasn't ready to say goodbye: www.shaunlunt.typepad.com

  6. #81
    Old man in the mountains osbornk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norms 427 View Post
    I'm shocked to learn that ... and it seems like a dumb idea. It seems to negate at least one of the inherent advantages of the boxer engine.

    I like the idea of the traditional boxers where u can pull a jug in a jiffy, just like an old air cooled VW or Lycoming / Continental aircraft motor.
    I suspect one of the reasons the cylinders are cast with the block is to eliminate the possibility of leaks. Every gasket presents the possibility of a leak. Does any other water cooled engine have removeable cylinders other than large diesel engines? Water cooled boxer engines don't seem to have an issue. Honda Goldwings and Subarus have long had a reputation of lasting a very long time.
    'You can say what you want about the South, but I almost never hear of anyone wanting to retire to the North.

  7. #82
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    1. Cylinders cast as part of the block. Would I have to split the cases to replace worn rings?
    This is what happens when you let car engineers design bikes. On a lighter note, maybe you can access the connecting rod bolts from the oil pan or other access panels. Surely, you might need a $300 BMW tool.

  8. #83
    Bluenoser
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    Quote Originally Posted by stkmkt1 View Post
    I am hung up on the wet clutch. I know most motorbikes now have them. But, one of the reasons the boxer engine enjoyed a typical longer life than other types of engines on bikes was because of the dry clutch. Now you will have clutch contaminants in your engine oil. This will shorten the life of the engine.

    Paul, anyone with real-world mechanical knowledge? Can you confirm I am correct?
    Bikes like Honda's Goldwing & ST1300's plus others have used the combined oil for engine & tranny for years with no problems, and longevity with the Wings & ST1300 is not an issue. They both rack up serious miles with no issues.

    BMW ( other than Ducati ) is now joining the rest of the motor bike world. The dry clutch certainly had its issues as well.
    1971 R50/5 SWB with R75/6 drivetrain
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  9. #84
    Registered User mneblett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cycleman2 View Post
    Bikes like Honda's Goldwing & ST1300's plus others have used the combined oil for engine & tranny for years with no problems, and longevity with the Wings & ST1300 is not an issue. They both rack up serious miles with no issues.

    BMW ( other than Ducati ) is now joining the rest of the motor bike world. The dry clutch certainly had its issues as well.
    BMW has been using the wet clutch for years now in the wedge K12/K13/K16's -- there is zero reason to be making an issue out of the wethead's wet clutch.
    Mark Neblett
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  10. #85
    One Man Wolfpack Kent Niederhofer's Avatar
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    Wethead Block

    Quote Originally Posted by mneblett View Post
    BMW has been using the wet clutch for years now in the wedge K12/K13/K16's -- there is zero reason to be making an issue out of the wethead's wet clutch.
    That feature saves weight, increases rigidity and potentially reduces cost (reduced part count, fewer fasteners and less machining). I don't necessarily see that as a negative assuming the cylinder's durability is acceptable.

    Kent

  11. #86
    Registered User GKman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnrugg View Post
    " the secondary drive now runs via the well-established cardan shaft"

    Is this a good thing?
    What did it run before if it's well established?


    My first guess is sort of a heart shaped cross section shaft and hollow tube instead of a square or symmetrically splined shaft. My farm mower has one between the u joints. It can't be assembled with the wrong orientation.

  12. #87
    Dixie, the land of cotton
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    I think that a wet clutch will be a big improvement

    As Paul has stated, it will be a lot easier to replace the clutch. But more importantly you will not have to worry about a seal leaking oil on your dry clutch.

  13. #88
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    One item I haven't heard about

    Does the new bike use BMWs current electronic diagnostics so the GS 911 is adaptable to it or does it employ some new interface design that will require new diagnostic tools? One can troubleshoot without such stuff but it sure speeds things up in many cases.

    When the first RepROM disc for it becomes available we'll get to see what it really will take to maintain it but BMW has been pretty good at reducing maintenance over the past decade. (I got a recent reminder of that by adding an 06 K1200GT to the garage to go with an 08 RT and a couple earlier BMWs that I ride or service for folks. The K bike is probably about twice the work to maintain of the R bikes...)

  14. #89
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osbornk View Post
    I suspect one of the reasons the cylinders are cast with the block is to eliminate the possibility of leaks. Every gasket presents the possibility of a leak. Does any other water cooled engine have removeable cylinders other than large diesel engines? Water cooled boxer engines don't seem to have an issue. Honda Goldwings and Subarus have long had a reputation of lasting a very long time.
    All very accurate but don't forget the fact this reduces costs of assembly significantly. I'm sure also it's a more "green" method of assembly.

    Also don't forget that of all the priorities, DIY maintenance ease is way down on the list. And note that catering to those who "want" to do maintenance is pretty well dismissed, too. Eliminating clutch spline lubrication does make DIY maintenance more easy because you don't have to do it.

    It's a REALLY small portion of the market for these bikes that includes those that want to accomplish multi-hundred thousand mile mileages on their bikes and then fix them themselves, and the rest of us shouldn't have to pay the extra cost inherent in that sort of design.
    Kent Christensen
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    '12 R1200RT, '02 R1100S, '84 R80G/S

  15. #90
    Cam Killer marchyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racer7 View Post
    Does the new bike use BMWs current electronic diagnostics so the GS 911 is adaptable to it or does it employ some new interface design that will require new diagnostic tools?
    I believe Hexcode has said that the new bike will need a new version of the GS-911. Apparently the new GS is similar to the K1600 which uses the third generation of BMW diagnostic tools. Hexcode says:

    The motorcycles with Generation 3 Diagnostics will require a new generation of GS-911... Our next generation is something that we've been developing behind the scenes for quite some time (however no fixed ETA available yet, as there is still a mountain of work to do on the new protocols!)

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