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Thread: Need Oil

  1. #46
    RAINEY 187132's Avatar
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    As someone in the lubricant engineering field I'm always amused by any threads pertaining to oil. I see some good answers and some that are totally out there and ridiculous.
    Jason
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    2012 BMW R1200RT

  2. #47
    What, me worry? GILLY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAINEY View Post
    As someone in the lubricant engineering field I'm always amused by any threads pertaining to oil. I see some good answers and some that are totally out there and ridiculous.
    heh heh, "lubricant engineering".......
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  3. #48
    2011 R1200RT ka5ysy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    heh heh, "lubricant engineering".......
    Mmmmmm... Jungle Juice
    Doug, 2011 R1200RT Polar Metallic
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  4. #49
    2011 R1200RT ka5ysy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    5W40 is still too thin for most of our bikes (except in the winter).
    Paul, with respect, that is not correct.

    When you see a W on a viscosity rating it means that the oil viscosity has been tested at a colder temperature. The numbers without the W are all tested at 210?? F or 100?? C which is considered an approximation of engine operating temperature. In other words, a SAE 30 motor oil is the same viscosity as a 10w-30 or 5W-30 at 210?? (100?? C). The difference is when the viscosity is tested at a much colder temperature. For example, a 5W-30 motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil would perform at the cold temperature specified, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity at 210?? F (100?? C) which is engine operating temperature. This allows the engine to get quick oil flow when it is started cold verses dry running until lubricant either warms up sufficiently or is finally forced through the engine oil system. The advantages of a low W viscosity number is obvious. The quicker the oil flows cold, the less dry running. Less dry running means much less engine wear. The only time the 5W-30 oil is "thin" is at cold start up conditions where you need it to be "thin."

    Even running 0W oil will not melt down our engines. The key number is the last one, at operating temperature. In practical terms, the engine starts easier (helps battery life!), and as the engine warms, the polymer chains in the oil thicken it for proper operating temperature rating.
    Doug, 2011 R1200RT Polar Metallic
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  5. #50
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    ...and if you read the oil/temp usage charts, they will tell you that a xx/40 wt oil is recommended up to about 75 degs or so (don't have the charts in front of me at the moment, so that temp could be off by a few, but not many).
    don't know about you, but i do a TON of riding at temps vastly exceeding 75 degs.
    a 20W/50 oil is temp rated from 20 degs F up to 105 F--- temp ranges that are rarely exceeded by most of us.

    I will support PG's statement that a xx/40 wt oil is, under most circumstances, too "thin" an oil for our bikes.
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  6. #51
    RAINEY 187132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ka5ysy View Post
    Paul, with respect, that is not correct.

    When you see a W on a viscosity rating it means that the oil viscosity has been tested at a colder temperature. The numbers without the W are all tested at 210?? F or 100?? C which is considered an approximation of engine operating temperature. In other words, a SAE 30 motor oil is the same viscosity as a 10w-30 or 5W-30 at 210?? (100?? C). The difference is when the viscosity is tested at a much colder temperature. For example, a 5W-30 motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil would perform at the cold temperature specified, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity at 210?? F (100?? C) which is engine operating temperature. This allows the engine to get quick oil flow when it is started cold verses dry running until lubricant either warms up sufficiently or is finally forced through the engine oil system. The advantages of a low W viscosity number is obvious. The quicker the oil flows cold, the less dry running. Less dry running means much less engine wear. The only time the 5W-30 oil is "thin" is at cold start up conditions where you need it to be "thin."

    Even running 0W oil will not melt down our engines. The key number is the last one, at operating temperature. In practical terms, the engine starts easier (helps battery life!), and as the engine warms, the polymer chains in the oil thicken it for proper operating temperature rating.
    Nicely Put. Keep watching the trends in OEM recommended lubricants. You will notice more and more 0wXX viscosity out there. Al most every automotive manufacturer now has 1 or more vehicles taking 0w20, 0w30 and 0w40. A lot of them have to do it to meet EPA and Cafe standards. Most engine engineers will say "thinner" is better on start up to quickly lubricate the top end.
    Jason
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    2012 BMW R1200RT

  7. #52
    2011 R1200RT ka5ysy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    ...and if you read the oil/temp usage charts, they will tell you that a xx/40 wt oil is recommended up to about 75 degs or so (don't have the charts in front of me at the moment, so that temp could be off by a few, but not many).
    don't know about you, but i do a TON of riding at temps vastly exceeding 75 degs.
    a 20W/50 oil is temp rated from 20 degs F up to 105 F--- temp ranges that are rarely exceeded by most of us.

    I will support PG's statement that a xx/40 wt oil is, under most circumstances, too "thin" an oil for our bikes.


    At what temperature is your oil thin ? Hot or Cold? What oil are you using in 90-100 weather ?

    I routinely ride in 90-100 degree weather in south Louisiana all summer, and I run Amsoil 20W50 full synthetic of the proper API service grade, SG, SL/CF/CG-4 and have a very happy engine in my RT with no oil usage at all.

    If it gets cold down here, I switch to 10W40 without problem.

    I think you may be confusing shear failure in overheated oil with the viscosity index. If you are riding in very hot temperatures use only full synthetic oil like we use in turbine engines. The problem with non-syn oil at high temperatures is that it tends to burn and coke up and causes damage due to abrasion from the carbon particles. Synthetics generally will not coke and ruin bearing surfaces.

    Here is the SAE outside temp recommendation. Anything in the green will work fine for the particular temperature:

    Doug, 2011 R1200RT Polar Metallic
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  8. #53
    Cam Killer marchyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    ...and if you read the oil/temp usage charts....
    They will tell you what is recommended for your specific bike. I would not extend what you read for your bike as a general rule applicable to all. Example:

    • 2010GS: no chart, table says 10W40 for >= -10 ??C, Castrol GPS 10W-40 >= -20 ??C, no upper limit given
    • 2008GS: 10W-40 -10 ... 30 ??C is listed in a table
    • 2004GS: 10W-40 -20 ... 30 ??C noted in chart form.

    Same oil, almost the same bike, 3 different ranges.

  9. #54
    2011 R1200RT ka5ysy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marchyman View Post
    They will tell you what is recommended for your specific bike. I would not extend what you read for your bike as a general rule applicable to all. Example:

    • 2010GS: no chart, table says 10W40 for >= -10 ??C, Castrol GPS 10W-40 >= -20 ??C, no upper limit given
    • 2008GS: 10W-40 -10 ... 30 ??C is listed in a table
    • 2004GS: 10W-40 -20 ... 30 ??C noted in chart form.

    Same oil, almost the same bike, 3 different ranges.
    Good point. One other thing to be aware of: API changes ratings from time to time and some become obsolete. There was a thread on one of the boards recently where someone was stressing over his inability to locate a specific API rated oil. Someone else pointed out that his manual was specifying an obsolete rating, and informed the OP of the new rating to look for.
    Doug, 2011 R1200RT Polar Metallic
    MSF #127350 NAUI #36288

  10. #55
    Norm Norms 427's Avatar
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    My wife's 2008 Jeep Commander with the 5.7L Hemi engine requires 5W-20 year around, in fact the manual threatens possible voiding of warranty if another viscosity is ever used. The manual says that because the engine has cylinder shut down under light throttle conditions for fuel economy the shut-down mechanisms are not reliable with thicker viscosities.

    It's surprising to me that this Jeep is rated to tow over 7,000 lbs in summertime heat and uses 5W-20.
    Now: '12 R1200RT Midnight Blue Metallic / '11 Ural Patrol 2WD ridden to Alaska / '09 KLR 650 / '05 HD Heritage Softail / '08 Harley Sportster 1200C / '85 Yamaha VMax bought new. I wasn't ready to say goodbye: www.shaunlunt.typepad.com

  11. #56
    Small road corner junkie pffog's Avatar
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    BMW sells oil??? People are too OCD about this stuff, it is an internal combustion engine, they have been around for years, cheap oils today FAR exceed the best you could buy 20 or 30 years ago. And last I knew the bike couldn't read the bottle.

    My oilhead has never seen BMW oil, past the first change. Dino for the first 15K, then full synthetic since, Mobile 1, Castrol Syntec, Shell Rotella, Valvoline.

    Being an 1100 it uses some oil, I top off with what ever I have on hand, regardless of brand.

    After 55,000 miles, 50 track days, a majority of my miles on twisty back roads at 4-8K RPM in 2 and 3rd gears, which is probably equivalent to 100K plus of 70 mph on the slab, it runs just fine.

    Just ride the thing!

  12. #57
    What, me worry? GILLY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pffog View Post
    BMW sells oil??? People are too OCD about this stuff, it is an internal combustion engine, they have been around for years, cheap oils today FAR exceed the best you could buy 20 or 30 years ago.
    Your response makes sense if you have a 20 to 30 year old bike. In that case yes the oil is way better than when the bike was made.
    On a new bike, the manufacturer, when it designs the engine, takes in to account the quality of oil available, and specs out the oil based on the then-current API classification. They probably assume you won't go out looking for a case of 30 year old oil, but just in case will tell you the classification of oil they expect you to use.
    As long as the oil you are using meets or exceeds the API classification, it is SAFE to use, you will NOT void your warranty if you are using the proper API classification and appropriate, recommended viscosity.
    In the case of my bike, a wedge 4, things are slightly more complicated due to the intregal engine/transmission, but again I know if I use what is stated in the manual "Mineral oil API classification SF to SH" it is OK to use. If they do come out with a higher class than that it is also OK to use. Anything beyond that is strictly an opinion (mineral vs synthetic, brand, etc).
    87 K75S, bought new, now sold
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Your response makes sense if you have a 20 to 30 year old bike. In that case yes the oil is way better than when the bike was made.
    On a new bike, the manufacturer, when it designs the engine, takes in to account the quality of oil available, and specs out the oil based on the then-current API classification. They probably assume you won't go out looking for a case of 30 year old oil, but just in case will tell you the classification of oil they expect you to use.
    As long as the oil you are using meets or exceeds the API classification, it is SAFE to use, you will NOT void your warranty if you are using the proper API classification and appropriate, recommended viscosity.
    In the case of my bike, a wedge 4, things are slightly more complicated due to the intregal engine/transmission, but again I know if I use what is stated in the manual "Mineral oil API classification SF to SH" it is OK to use. If they do come out with a higher class than that it is also OK to use. Anything beyond that is strictly an opinion (mineral vs synthetic, brand, etc).
    not necessarily. we already have oil classification ratings beyond SH. the newest is SN (the 2nd letter is patterned alphabetically, so that means that 6
    betters" have come (and 5 have gone) since that SH rating was "da best". that does not mean that they are better for our motors, just that they meet newer specs. again, the nature of the additive package is at the heart of the question here. typically, the newer oils specs have lower anti-friction/anti-wear agents in their additive package. and that is not an especially good thing for us.
    interesting that the newest wedge motors call for SF-SH, as those are the same API classes called for in airheads and oilheads.
    i look for oils that are SG rated, 20W50. typically, that has meant Castrol m/c specific oils.
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  14. #59
    What, me worry? GILLY's Avatar
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    And once the SG oil is no longer produced, than what do you do?
    87 K75S, bought new, now sold
    07 K1200GT Bought new, now traded in
    13 C650GT
    MOA 44606

  15. #60
    2011 R1200RT ka5ysy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    And once the SG oil is no longer produced, than what do you do?
    BULLETIN ! : SG is now an obsolete rating. Current ones are SJ/SL/SM/SN


    Go to the American Petroleum Institute site and get the ratings guide, use the current standard, and stop stressing over oil ratings. For those still worrying about thin oil and what temperatures are used with what viscosity rating, the bottom of the last page in the PDF file noted below shows the temperature ranges recommendations. PDF file is here:


    http://www.api.org/certifications/en...010_120210.pdf


    Now go ride and quit wasting bandwidth, time and oxygen worrying about oil.
    Last edited by ka5ysy; 10-12-2012 at 10:56 AM.
    Doug, 2011 R1200RT Polar Metallic
    MSF #127350 NAUI #36288

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