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  1. #1
    Registered User miairhead's Avatar
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    another accident

    A 25-year-old motorcyclist was hurt Saturday when a vehicle pulled out in front of
    him on Stadium Drive west of Kalamazoo, authorities said.

    The crash occurred when a vehicle driven by an 84-year-old man pulled out of the manÔÇÖs driveway and into the path of LosinskiÔÇÖs westbound motorcycle.
    Tom
    '84 R100RT '04 CLC(gone) Honda NT700V
    BMW
    Beer Motorcycles Women

  2. #2
    Nickname: Droid
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    Tragic. Wish that every rider had the full range of awareness we all need to hopefully avoid these crashes (there are no accidents in my opinion).

    But whenever I read of these crashes, we can learn more with a bit of internet searching to get the full report. There are so many factors that are critical to understand rather than just "car pulled into the path of the motorcycle."

    Seemingly simple factors like, time of day, direction of travel, environmental area (trees, shadows, visual blockage, line of sight issues, etc). There are far too many aspects of the entire crash scene that we don't know of or are aware of, to be able to fully understand how most crashes can be avoided. The comment about the bike being westbound makes me wonder what time of day? If the bike is westbound, the rider is lookng into the sun, reducing the rider's ability to see clearly if it is a low afternoon sun. Same for the car driver. If he was pulling out of a south facing driveway, and looked right first, then left, his vision may have been momentarily reduced due to looking into the sun. Especially since he was 84.

    I am a bit familiar with that area. Looked up the crash info on the news report. It occurred at 6:30pm, so the sun would be low in the west sky. The area of the crash has a good number of trees (shadows) and buildings fairly close to the road (visual blockages). Its also a multi-lane road with no center median, indicating a road to handle a lot of traffic, an likely higher speed (like 35 to 45 mph). I make these comments because rather than simply lament the pain a fellow rider suffers in a crash, if we dig a bit deeper we can gain more perspective on some of the crash influence factors. And knowing this can help us all to be more aware when riding and hopefully avoid a crash in the future.
    Last edited by ANDYVH; 08-28-2012 at 03:37 PM.

  3. #3
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    Had another one here yesterday. 64 year old motorcyclist riding westbound on main road through town...truck driven by 28 year old going eastbound. Truck turns left to go into gas station, hits motorcyclist...motorcyclist dies.

    My immediate questions are: What could have been done to avoid this? Did motorcyclist anticipate the potential left-turning truck? Why didn't truck driver see motorcyclist?

    Agree on full report needed. These things really bother me, because just based on the raw story, this could have been me (or you).

  4. #4
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    To these questions, "My immediate questions are: What could have been done to avoid this? Did motorcyclist anticipate the potential left-turning truck? Why didn't truck driver see motorcyclist?"

    Granted, this is from an office with no knowledge of the scene/conditions. Most always everyone quickly/solely blames the non-motorcycle operator. And not to diminish the car/truck driver's fault, there are a LOT of factors to consider:
    1. Cycle rider awareness of ALL the conditions in the riding environment
    2. Cycle rider awareness of ANY potential left turning vehicle
    3. Cycle rider awareness of any area conditions to cause a left turning vehicle, and using that awareness to be ready for anything
    4. Truck driver awareness of hard to see vehicles in his path of travel
    5. Truck driver awareness to judge how fast a cycle is approaching, some vehicle drivers have real issues with determining the approach speed of other vehicles
    6. Truck driver visual limitations and impact on the crash cause
    7. Visual acuity problems for both crash involved operators; blinding sun, shadows, visual obstructions, a cycle can "blend into" the background, etc, etc.
    8. Emotional problems for both operators.
    9. Distraction problems for both operators.

    When a car/truck driver says "I never saw the bike" I'd say they are rarely lying. Note I put the cycle rider awareness first, as I feel our safety and risk reductions is OUR burden FIRST as riders. I never expect anything from any road user, other than perhaps they'll do something wrong/stupid/distracted/uninvolved in the task at hand. Never take anything for granted.

  5. #5
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    Agree with your points. I just threw out my first questions.

    Now...when I ride, my attitude is this: I'm on a motorcycle. The motorcycle has a bullseye on it. Four-wheeled vehicles are all attempting to hit that bullseye. Ergo...I trust no one.

    In the case of this accident, a possible factor was the motorcycle coming FROM the east (direction of rising sun...accident occurred at 7:30 AM).

  6. #6
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    My '04 RT-P has the PIAAs on all the time and no one has turned left in front of me in the 4 months that I've ridden it. On other bikes it used to seem that every single day someone either turned in front of me or started to then suddenly stopped when they noticed me late.

    As far as rider awareness is concerned, it certainly helps but don't fool yourself into thinking it will keep you totally safe. Sometimes the turning vehicle is unavoidable.

  7. #7
    Registered User AKsuited's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrider View Post
    Why didn't truck driver see motorcyclist?
    He wasn't looking for motorcycles.

    The motorcyclist was wearing black from head to toe, including black helmet, and was easily missed.

    (No, I wasn't there, I didn't see how he was dressed, but guess what? The above description fits 80 percent or more of motorcyclists.)

    The motorcyclist had low beam headlight on, which was not noticeable.

    If the problem is that other motorists have a problem noticing motorcyclists in traffic, what are you going to do about it? (I say that to all motorcyclists, not you personally).

    All the safety studies conclude that making yourself more visible to other motorists improves your odds on a bike.

    Harry
    2003 R1150RT - Silver

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    I've always thought that a major contributor is the fact that most folks on motorcycles ride only a few miles a year and aren't really well adapted to the better defensive skills one needs compared to a cager.
    I have vivid memories of all those homicidal little old ladies when I first learned to ride in the 1960s Finally dawned on me, probably just before my luck could run out, that the problem was me and not them. Gotten so used to anticipating dumb stuff from cagers it doesn't even raise my blood pressure these days. No doubt the Photon Blasters and D2s always running on the front end help as do the pair of extra brake lights out back but it starts with developing ones bike habits and keeping them sharp.
    My primary riding concerns are space and visibility- do what I need to do to get both. You can't get hit by distant objects and being clearly visible to others with unobstructed sight lines for yourself is fundamental= you can't plan for or avoid what you don't see. I also don't ride distracted- no music, no gps fiddling if its on, etc...

  9. #9
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    Racer7 you hit much of the issues dead on! What you describe as methods to address the issues for the rider personally are very real and very effective. Plus, like you said, many riders simply don't get enough seat time/miles to become proficient at street/traffic skills. So when the event happens, its invariably the cage driver's sole fault, when actually the rider contributes largely to the event.

    I ride about 10,000 miles per year on average. National average for cycle riders I read somewhere is about 2,000 to 2,500 miles per year. So I ride about four times the average. Yet, I rarely have issues of cars pulling out on me, turning left close in front of me, taking my lane, etc. I'd like to think cage drivers around Green Bay and east central Wisconsin are better than the average Joe-cager, but I really doubt it.

    Well over 15 years ago, I took it upon myself as the rider to do everything I could do to make my riding better, and my street skills better. When I took on this attitude, my riding situations ALL got much better. A huge part of that is visibility, space cushion and timing, all things that the MSF pushes. And it works, IF you do it all the time.

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=ANDYVH;814189]Tragic. Wish that every rider had the full range of awareness we all need to hopefully avoid these crashes (there are no accidents in my opinion).


    Andy,

    I disagree completely with your opinion that there are no accidents and that all situations can be avoided.

    I am a long time rider and a long distance rider. I've averaged 25,000 miles a year since 2007 and I to fooled myself into thinking that I could handle any situation by just being aware and staying away from other cars, yada, yada, yada.

    May 26, 2012 I was following my best friend and my father in law on our way to meet family for breakfast. It was 9:10 am on a Saturday morning. The road was clear, the weather was perfect, no blind spots the situation was as close to perfect as possible. We were on a two lane road, speed limit was 55, we approached the intersection at about 45-50 mph. A car was stopped at the intersection, another car was coming towards us.

    Sixteen year old boy in the stopped car not only didn't yield to us, he didn't yield to the 19 year girl in the car coming towards us (from his right). He drove right into the side of the girls car, causing her to spin counterclockwise and slide thru our lane sideways. My friend drove into the passenger side of her car as she slid thru our lane. He never even hit his brakes, there was absolutely nothing he could do, and no place for him to go. From beginning to end we talking maybe a second or two. My friend died instantly.

    The collision was so violent his bike (ST1300) exploded into a ball of flame. When I left the scene 1/2 hour to an hour later it was still simmering and unrecognizable. My father in law hit here rear end but did not go down. Neither one of us has any recollection of how we got thru safely.

    I didn't ride for about a month, not because I was afraid, because I was sad. The sadness is still there but the pull motorcycling has on me is stronger. I'm back to riding and have no intention of quitting. It's just that every time I go out, I realize I may not come home. The risks are worth it to me.

  11. #11
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=dkjkwood;815447]
    Quote Originally Posted by ANDYVH View Post
    Tragic. Wish that every rider had the full range of awareness we all need to hopefully avoid these crashes (there are no accidents in my opinion).


    Andy,

    I disagree completely with your opinion that there are no accidents and that all situations can be avoided.

    I am a long time rider and a long distance rider. I've averaged 25,000 miles a year since 2007 and I to fooled myself into thinking that I could handle any situation by just being aware and staying away from other cars, yada, yada, yada.

    May 26, 2012 I was following my best friend and my father in law on our way to meet family for breakfast. It was 9:10 am on a Saturday morning. The road was clear, the weather was perfect, no blind spots the situation was as close to perfect as possible. We were on a two lane road, speed limit was 55, we approached the intersection at about 45-50 mph. A car was stopped at the intersection, another car was coming towards us.

    Sixteen year old boy in the stopped car not only didn't yield to us, he didn't yield to the 19 year girl in the car coming towards us (from his right). He drove right into the side of the girls car, causing her to spin counterclockwise and slide thru our lane sideways. My friend drove into the passenger side of her car as she slid thru our lane. He never even hit his brakes, there was absolutely nothing he could do, and no place for him to go. From beginning to end we talking maybe a second or two. My friend died instantly.

    The collision was so violent his bike (ST1300) exploded into a ball of flame. When I left the scene 1/2 hour to an hour later it was still simmering and unrecognizable. My father in law hit here rear end but did not go down. Neither one of us has any recollection of how we got thru safely.

    I didn't ride for about a month, not because I was afraid, because I was sad. The sadness is still there but the pull motorcycling has on me is stronger. I'm back to riding and have no intention of quitting. It's just that every time I go out, I realize I may not come home. The risks are worth it to me.
    Do I understand you correctly? The 16 year old kid had stopped for a stop sign, then proceeded across the near lane of the three riders, hit the rear end of the car driven by the 19 year old girl which caused her car to spin back into the path of the riders? So the 16 year old's pull out was safe from the riders' point of view (plenty of room for him to pull out so the riders didn't sense any danger or need to brake) and then the sudden surprise was the car in the opposite lane spinning into the riders' lane? Oh, now I get it. The back end of the girl's car was knocked at a 90 degree angle to the road and HER power pulled it into the riders' lane.

    My guess is that your friend died because he indeed didn't have time to react. Your father in law DID have time to brake almost to a stop, hence didn't drop the bike after the collision, as did you - though I understand not remembering what you did correctly.

    I think it is too much to expect your best friend to notice that the car pulling out from the stop sign COULD collide with the oncoming car, much less expect it could impact him. I agree with you: there ARE accidents. We can do our best to minimize them, but we can never reduce the risk of riding to zero.
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  12. #12
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    Another thought-provoking MC crash

    Quote from August 29 local paper: "A Lower Mainland man died in a crash on Westside Road Monday.

    A 30-year-old Surrey man was driving a motorcycle southbound in the Fintry area at 5:52 p.m. when he crossed the centre line and collided head-on with a northbound SUV.

    'The motorcycle driver was thrown from the bike and suffered fatal injuries upon impact,' said Const. Kris Clark, with the RCMP.'

    'According to witnesses, the motorcyclist was speeding, passing vehicles illegally and crossed the centre line into oncoming traffic.'

    'The man was also found to be prohibited from driving and was not wearing an approved helmet.'

    No charges are anticipated against the driver of the SUV and investigators continue to assist the coroner in his investigation,' said Clark."

    This road is close to home and I know it well, as do many other riders. Call it "The Dragon" of the north Okanagan: narrow, lots of curves, few places to safely pass. Even at sane speeds it is the quickest route from my home to south of Kelowna, avoiding two cities. The real dangers for riders are deer, and other riders who treat it as a personal race course. Every year there are rider deaths on this road and I expect the above account is more typical than a deer collision.

    These roads ARE fun, but they are also dangerous. Just glad that idiot killed himself hitting a SUV rather than me on my bike. You may want to re-think when you ride this type of road to avoid not only the motorhomes but also your more idiotic fellow riders.
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  13. #13
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    I am always aware of when I pass the point of no return. The point where a cage can get you and you will not have any way to avoid it. I try to make that time as short as possible. It always exists.

    Godspeed to your friend, good thoughts for his survivors, including yourself. May his bike never need tires, maintenance where he is now. Oh, and no inattentive drivers.


    Rod

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