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Thread: LC 20 oil additive..

  1. #16
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    really? it is?
    No. As with most recent BMW engines, the engine management system keeps the motor very close to as lean as possible. There are not a lot of hydrocarbons to remain unburned. That statement is true of some Airheads but not of any injected engine since.

    Babying the engine can cause some buildup from oil, from rings not sealing well, but that is entirely another issue.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    really? it is?
    There was a 2006 boxer engine taken apart at my local dealer with carbon all over the piston surface and on the overhead area/valves.. I asked the dealer about it and he said that it's somewhat normal on the engines that burn oil.... and this one was burning oil into the 20's...

    I mean what else do you expect when you burn oil? water vapor?

  3. #18
    Swamp Fox GeneT's Avatar
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    Oil additives

    After spending a life time working with marine diesel engines and a few gasoline engines I firmly believe that one can not beat a good quality engine lubricant. A good quality product does not need any additives. Consider a good lubricant as cheaper than a prematurely worn out engine.

    The best way to determine wear characteristics is to send a sample of your used lubricant to a reputable independent oil lab for analysis. Many engine manufactures publish acceptable wear limits for a particular engine. Granted, that a baseline is most helpful in failure analysis, but if you use a good lab the engineer can be most helpful in the areas of "normal" wear.

    Most labs can provide a TBN number (total base number) this provides approximate age of the oil and their testing can also tell you of useful oil life remaining. Some lab reports are listed in metallurgical terms, fe: Iron, cu:Copper, al:Aluminum, cr:Chrome, pb:Lead, etc. In order to fully benefit from this report you need to know what parts are made of which metal.

    The report will also indicate silicone some of which is an additive except abrasive silicone, which is dirt. Moisture from coolant and/or condensation.

    If anyone is interested in speaking with an engineer (owner) at the oil lab I used for somewhere close to 20 years can personally email me for name, address, phone number and email address. I have no interest is this business but admit over the years the owner and I become friends.
    Gene T

  4. #19
    Themason 42906's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneT View Post
    After spending a life time working with marine diesel engines and a few gasoline engines I firmly believe that one can not beat a good quality engine lubricant. A good quality product does not need any additives. Consider a good lubricant as cheaper than a prematurely worn out engine.

    The best way to determine wear characteristics is to send a sample of your used lubricant to a reputable independent oil lab for analysis. Many engine manufactures publish acceptable wear limits for a particular engine. Granted, that a baseline is most helpful in failure analysis, but if you use a good lab the engineer can be most helpful in the areas of "normal" wear.

    Most labs can provide a TBN number (total base number) this provides approximate age of the oil and their testing can also tell you of useful oil life remaining. Some lab reports are listed in metallurgical terms, fe: Iron, cu:Copper, al:Aluminum, cr:Chrome, pb:Lead, etc. In order to fully benefit from this report you need to know what parts are made of which metal.

    The report will also indicate silicone some of which is an additive except abrasive silicone, which is dirt. Moisture from coolant and/or condensation.

    If anyone is interested in speaking with an engineer (owner) at the oil lab I used for somewhere close to 20 years can personally email me for name, address, phone number and email address. I have no interest is this business but admit over the years the owner and I become friends.

    Exactly! Thank you. I had trucks in my fleet running 20,000 miles per month and we had engines lasting past 500,000 miles with nothing more than routine maintenance, regular oil and filter changes, regular testing of the coolant (Nalcool additive in diesel engine coolant is essential to prevent pitting of the wet liners) and an "overhead "(valve) adjustment every 100K. One of our trucks that was dedicated to two careful drivers went over 900,000 miles before the engine , an older 14 liter Cummins "Big Cam" 400) needed an overhaul. If the oil you buy has the right additives to begin with, putting in additional additives is a complete waste of money. It accomplishes nothing. We used Chevron Delo 400 and changed this at 10,000 mile intervals, which is extremely conservative by modern standards. With the current synthetics oil changes are out past 20,000 miles and the engines last just fine.
    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

  5. #20
    Themason 42906's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1200RClassic View Post
    actually it is a fact that the additives do wear out and/or evaporate over time... The life of a good synthetic oil is generally dictated by the length of time the additive package is expected to last. I don't dispute that 99% of the additives are unnecessary but I did read a few good things about this LC20 and it seems with an engine prone to getting a lot of carbon on the piston and heads, this might be helpful in keeping it cleaner, as Techron has been proven to do from the fuel standpoint.
    True, but even so do you really think the engineers that designed the oil are so stupid as to omit necessary additives from their additive package? And are you absolutely certain the people at LC 20 magically know just what additives are lacking in the oil you buy? And, if you change the oil at the recommended interval, why would you worry about the additive package in the oil wearing out?
    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

  6. #21
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    I have been using Techron regularly for over ten years in my 94 R1100RS. I usually go through two bottles of Techron per season. In 170k miles I still have the original fuel pump, fuel regulator and fuel injectors in the bike. I have never had the injectors out to be cleaned or flow balanced, and the bike idles smoothly and revs up great. So I do think Techron is a great product for regular use to keep the fuel system clean.

    But to expect it to keep the combustion chamber and piston crown free of carbon buildup is an unreasonable expectation in my opinion. The Autolite plugs on my RS always have a great light tan color to them. But when I shine a focused light beam into the plug hole I can easily see carbon buildup on the piston crown. Very minimal, but it is there. Although the carbon buildup is not thick or crusty like in some carbbed cycle engines I have worked on over the years.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 42906 View Post
    True, but even so do you really think the engineers that designed the oil are so stupid as to omit necessary additives from their additive package? And are you absolutely certain the people at LC 20 magically know just what additives are lacking in the oil you buy? And, if you change the oil at the recommended interval, why would you worry about the additive package in the oil wearing out?
    If you read their site, and the links to the fleet's who use their additive you'll see what they claim and how they're not the same claims as the snake oil additive companies.

    Here is the Dyson Analysis as well if you don't feel like searching around the site..

    http://www.lcdinc.com/tests_dyson.php

  8. #23
    Swamp Fox GeneT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 42906 View Post
    Exactly! Thank you. I had trucks in my fleet running 20,000 miles per month and we had engines lasting past 500,000 miles with nothing more than routine maintenance, regular oil and filter changes, regular testing of the coolant (Nalcool additive in diesel engine coolant is essential to prevent pitting of the wet liners) and an "overhead "(valve) adjustment every 100K. One of our trucks that was dedicated to two careful drivers went over 900,000 miles before the engine , an older 14 liter Cummins "Big Cam" 400) needed an overhaul. If the oil you buy has the right additives to begin with, putting in additional additives is a complete waste of money. It accomplishes nothing. We used Chevron Delo 400 and changed this at 10,000 mile intervals, which is extremely conservative by modern standards. With the current synthetics oil changes are out past 20,000 miles and the engines last just fine.
    I never worked in the truck shop, my thing was mostly marine propulsion and generators with some off the road heavy equipment. However I am fully aware with the proper maintenance it is very likely that what we referred to as automotive (truck) that a million miles can be covered before major overhaul. Anytime an owner has to pump 55 gallons of fresh oil into one engine you know he wants to be able to use it for its full life span and the only way to know this is through periodic oil analysis. If a Lubrifiner is in use thats another 5 gallons per engine.

    Pitting of the wet liners is referred to as "cavitation". This condition will also pit the engine block in the O ring area, thus affecting the seal. It is caused by the coolant not being wet enough causing it to create bubbles, the bubbles collapsing is what causes the cavitation. The use of the proper amount of NalCool from the beginning of engine service, will actually permit the NalCool to penetrate the casting, which will be found clean and slightly tinted purple upon disassembly.
    Gene T

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1200RClassic View Post
    If you read their site, and the links to the fleet's who use their additive you'll see what they claim and how they're not the same claims as the snake oil additive companies.
    If you pardon me saying this, it sounds like you prefer to believe the website of the people trying to sell you something than the accumulated knowledge of the people who have responded to your question.

    In short - sounds like you're about to become a user of this LC20 stuff.

    Just an observation. No offence intended.

  10. #25
    Themason 42906's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneT View Post
    I never worked in the truck shop, my thing was mostly marine propulsion and generators with some off the road heavy equipment. However I am fully aware with the proper maintenance it is very likely that what we referred to as automotive (truck) that a million miles can be covered before major overhaul. Anytime an owner has to pump 55 gallons of fresh oil into one engine you know he wants to be able to use it for its full life span and the only way to know this is through periodic oil analysis. If a Lubrifiner is in use thats another 5 gallons per engine.

    Pitting of the wet liners is referred to as "cavitation". This condition will also pit the engine block in the O ring area, thus affecting the seal. It is caused by the coolant not being wet enough causing it to create bubbles, the bubbles collapsing is what causes the cavitation. The use of the proper amount of NalCool from the beginning of engine service, will actually permit the NalCool to penetrate the casting, which will be found clean and slightly tinted purple upon disassembly.
    Lubrifiner? Geez, I hadn't thought of one of those in decades. You must be a two stroke Detroit man! Last time I saw one of those it was in a bus. Those old Detroit things burn so much oil that you are almost doing a rolling oil change as you drive. Burn oil, add oil, run oil through the lubrifiner, like some endless cycle. Modern four stroke engines don't use oil like that and none that I know of use Lubrifiners.

    Correct about cavitation. I wasn't going to bore the audience with the technical explanation, but since you did, a tip of the had. Few outside the diesel world would think that the vibration in a wet liner caused by the piston moving up and down the bore could actually pull the liner away from the coolant, but it does. When the coolant shoots back into the cavitation, there is enough energy to pit the metal. Enough cycles and you can hole the liner and get a coolant leak. The way our rep describe it, the NalCool creates a sacrificial coating on the liner so any cavitation pits the Nalcool coating, not the liner, and NalCool in suspension in the coolant replace that which the cavitation wore off.

    I wonder if the wet liners in my V-Rod need NalCool???
    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 42906 View Post
    I wonder if the wet liners in my V-Rod need NalCool???
    Water Wetter is, as I understand it, a similar product which when used properly, lowers the operating temps in hi-heat environments. I use it in my water-cooled bikes.

    http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10

  12. #27
    Registered User f14rio's Avatar
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    re:" As with most recent BMW engines, the engine management system keeps the motor

    ...Running as lean as possible results it high combustion temps and potentially adverse effects on engine metalurgy.
    i stuck a power commander in my '09 harley and richened the f/a ratio which did reduce compustion temps as measured at the tail pipe with an ir sensor.
    of course, my conscience does bother me a bit because i'm releasing a few more hydrocarbons in to the atmosphere and screwing with the ozone layer. so what i do is give a tree a hug after each ride.
    "Enemy fighters at 2 o'clock!...Roger, What should i do until then?"

    2010 r1200r, 2009 harley crossbones, 2008 triumph/sidecar, 1970 norton commando 750

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by f14rio View Post
    ...
    of course, my conscience does bother me a bit because i'm releasing a few more hydrocarbons in to the atmosphere and screwing with the ozone layer.
    This global warming thing - apparently its all your fault.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by f14rio View Post
    ...my conscience does bother me a bit because i'm releasing a few more hydrocarbons in to the atmosphere and screwing with the ozone layer. so what i do is give a tree a hug after each ride.
    I wonder how many miles you'd have to ride your HD to spew out as many hydrocarbons as you did on one F14 sortie?
    Kevin Huddy
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  15. #30
    Swamp Fox GeneT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 42906 View Post
    Lubrifiner? Geez, I hadn't thought of one of those in decades. You must be a two stroke Detroit man! Last time I saw one of those it was in a bus. Those old Detroit things burn so much oil that you are almost doing a rolling oil change as you drive. Burn oil, add oil, run oil through the lubrifiner, like some endless cycle. Modern four stroke engines don't use oil like that and none that I know of use Lubrifiners.

    Correct about cavitation. I wasn't going to bore the audience with the technical explanation, but since you did, a tip of the had. Few outside the diesel world would think that the vibration in a wet liner caused by the piston moving up and down the bore could actually pull the liner away from the coolant, but it does. When the coolant shoots back into the cavitation, there is enough energy to pit the metal. Enough cycles and you can hole the liner and get a coolant leak. The way our rep describe it, the NalCool creates a sacrificial coating on the liner so any cavitation pits the Nalcool coating, not the liner, and NalCool in suspension in the coolant replace that which the cavitation wore off.

    I wonder if the wet liners in my V-Rod need NalCool???
    Well 4296, you hit the nail right on the head, I grew up with 2 cycle Detroits, beginning with the 51 series, I attended most all of their factory schools, and yes they used some oil, they were designed to do that. I still have the acceptable usage oil schedule. After leaving there I wound up with my fingers in many different makes and I assure you all dealerships have a pile of skeletons behind the shop. I believe I have you pegged as a Cummins guy, I found the old ones big heavy lazy and tough, I believe the newer ones are just great.

    I have used NalCool in my cars, it worked great.
    Gene T

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