Proficient cornering...

[ncstephen]

[QUOTE=flyrider;810061]It's very helpful...especially the body lean part. I was on a ride the other day and consciously shifted my weight to the inside during the turn, and suddenly had a real sense of command over the bike's line and a sense of confidence as well. The reduction in required lean angle for the bike, while slight on most of the turns I made (not high speed cornering), was enough to make me feel "planted" on my line.

Unfortunately, our area is now besotted with forest fires, and visibility is a few miles at best, so my favorite winding road into the mountains isn't an enjoyable, or wise, ride right now. Additionally, the highway folks have decided to resurface the road, as well. Double whammy...[/QUOTE]

A great chance to learn to ride in less than idea situations. Road surfaces vary all the time. Getting used to that so you are relaxed will help when out on a ride and suddenly you have to ride a road just covered in new tar/chip.

As for the weight inside of the bike on a turn.. great job. Remember to put the weight to the inside before you begin the turn in. Doing so while in the curve you have the physics of the bike making the turn, the tires doing their job and then you go and add your mass as a shifting variable to the mix. Better to have your mass shifted over before the turn physics begin.

And where are you now?

NCS

[moot]

Reading the responses to this point, I note that no one has mentioned trail braking. Once you understand the geometry of your motorcycle and the manner in which proper use of the front brake by trail braking in a corner influences that geometry and the contact of your front tire with the road, your speed through the corners increases. No one has yet mentioned Nick Ienatsch, so let me recommend his book, "Sport Riding Techniques" which is overall outstanding and includes a detailed discussion of trail braking. I had the good fortune of ride behind Nick on a high-speed jaunt on some pretty curvy roads -- simply keeping an eye on his brake light was a great introduction to the concept.

[flyrider]

Reading the responses to this point, I note that no one has mentioned trail braking. Once you understand the geometry of your motorcycle and the manner in which proper use of the front brake by trail braking in a corner influences that geometry and the contact of your front tire with the road, your speed through the corners increases. No one has yet mentioned Nick Ienatsch, so let me recommend his book, "Sport Riding Techniques" which is overall outstanding and includes a detailed discussion of trail braking. I had the good fortune of ride behind Nick on a high-speed jaunt on some pretty curvy roads -- simply keeping an eye on his brake light was a great introduction to the concept.

I've read Ienatsch's book...it's great. Thanks for mentioning it...good stuff.

[flyrider]

[QUOTE=NCStephen;810099]

It's very helpful...especially the body lean part. I was on a ride the other day and consciously shifted my weight to the inside during the turn, and suddenly had a real sense of command over the bike's line and a sense of confidence as well. The reduction in required lean angle for the bike, while slight on most of the turns I made (not high speed cornering), was enough to make me feel "planted" on my line.

Unfortunately, our area is now besotted with forest fires, and visibility is a few miles at best, so my favorite winding road into the mountains isn't an enjoyable, or wise, ride right now. Additionally, the highway folks have decided to resurface the road, as well. Double whammy...[/QUOTE]

A great chance to learn to ride in less than idea situations. Road surfaces vary all the time. Getting used to that so you are relaxed will help when out on a ride and suddenly you have to ride a road just covered in new tar/chip.

As for the weight inside of the bike on a turn.. great job. Remember to put the weight to the inside before you begin the turn in. Doing so while in the curve you have the physics of the bike making the turn, the tires doing their job and then you go and add your mass as a shifting variable to the mix. Better to have your mass shifted over before the turn physics begin.

And where are you now?

NCS

Great advice on the early weight shift...

Where am I now? Not sure what the question is asking...

As for riding in less than ideal conditions, I'm sure that'll happen...like yesterday, riding in 1 mile visibility in smoke. Got home and had to wash the gear...it smelled like it had hung in a chimney with a wet, smoky log burning underneath it. Maybe I learned something on the ride, but if I did, it was that those conditions are no fun...and riding for fun is why I do it. I learned similar lessons when flying...and once went out in those "less than ideal" conditions, only to be in trail to a commercial jet on final...and watching the jet have to "go around" due to wind shear. Imagine me in my single-engine four-seater a few miles behind him, thinking...now what. The "now what" was an hour spent circling south of the airport, waiting for the turbulence to subside.

[bikerfish1100]

Reading the responses to this point, I note that no one has mentioned trail braking. Once you understand the geometry of your motorcycle and the manner in which proper use of the front brake by trail braking in a corner influences that geometry and the contact of your front tire with the road, your speed through the corners increases. No one has yet mentioned Nick Ienatsch, so let me recommend his book, "Sport Riding Techniques" which is overall outstanding and includes a detailed discussion of trail braking. I had the good fortune of ride behind Nick on a high-speed jaunt on some pretty curvy roads -- simply keeping an eye on his brake light was a great introduction to the concept.

probably because for flyrider, who is just trying to work thru the concept/application of setting a good line for a corner, trail braking is still a bit advanced.
you know, a case of trying to get 10 lbs of feces into a 5 lb bag just does not work- it overwhelms the bag, and nothing at all stays contained.

[dwestly]

+1 on Sport Riding Techniques. Good read. Also, trail braking is an advanced technique, one best learned at a school/training course. It requires good feel of the brakes, road and bike, as well as a well-grounded understanding of braking dynamics and application to traction. I use it all the time at the track, but tend to not rely on it on public roads. The problem with using trail braking on public roads is the unknown road conditions. On the track you know the condition of the pavement, the traction capabilities of the tires/bike, etc. On public roads you never know what the road surface is going to be like. It can change from day to day, even hourly. Throwing yourself fast into a corner on a public road and depending upon adequate traction to employ trail braking on the front end is a lot like rolling the dice...

[txmxrider]

This has been a great thread and a good read. If I could I'd like to add one other thing that has helped me a lot and I'm surprised no one mentioned it already and that is don't forget to breathe. Racing enduros in tight trees taught me to control my breathing and concentrate on being smooth. Slow down to speed up. It's kind of a yoga thing, and not that different from snow skiing. If you ride within your abilities and work on being smooth and precise and practice deep, rhythmic breathing, you'll soon find yourself carving graceful arcs and perfect apexes. Think in terms of maximizing efficiency. Don't try to beat the bike up in the corners. Relax just a bit, keep a loose and flexible body position, let the bike flow and let the corners come to you.

In racing the real speed is on straightaways and all corners do is connect the straights. So in racing your goal is to use the corner to get the best "run" at the next straight, or if there is a series of corners, to exit one corner in the best possible position to maximize your exit out of the following corner. The primary goal on the track is to get the jump on the next guy to the upcoming straight. Road riding is different in many ways. You have so many more things to factor in: blind corners, gravel, potholes, cars crossing the center line, dogs and deer just to name a few. On the road safety is paramount. Being the fastest guy through the corner doesn't matter much if you're dead.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in complete agreement that track days and riding schools will help immensely. But practice riding within yourself, concentrate on riding smooth, precise and in control and BREATHE and I predict that the speed will come without you even thinking about it. And a fringe benefit is that you'll be comfortably carving apexes all day instead of fighting arm pump and leg cramps.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[pffog]

...........I'm surprised no one mentioned it already and that is don't forget to breathe. ...........

Good points, But I guess I roll it all under the SMOOTH monicker, if you are smooth, there is less drama, if there is less drama, you are more relaxed, if you are relaxed you breath normally, if you breath normally your upper body (shoulders, arms) are relaxed, once you relax you feel confident, once you feel confident you start riding faster, once you start riding faster, the squids can't keep up.


Maybe I should get a job writing TV commercials

Oh and without re-reading all of this to see if mentioned, the KEY to smooth is looking as far ahead as possible, and always WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!. If you are looking 50' ahead, you will never be smooth, eyes UP!

In fact when the road gets challenging I repeat "look where you want to go" over and over to myself when riding.

[ncstephen]

So much great information. So difficult to learn without some tutorage. So easy to think you are doing it right and pick up some distracting habits along the way. So much easier to work out with some course work where all these things will be introduced at the right moment.

Can you do it on your own. Maybe. Possibly. Time frame would be much much longer.

If you really want to get the skill mentioned here, you really need a skilled coach rider around. Even if you can't do a school within an easy day's reach, look to a one on one appropriately trained instructor that can work with you.

Keep us informed.
NCS

[flyrider]

Regarding "looking where you want to go" and "keep the eyes up"...those are things I learned in a skills/safety course I took, but I'd like to drill down to exactly what these terms mean...

Let's say I'm entering a long corner. I "look through the turn", but still need to "look where I want to go". If I keep my eyes all the way through the turn, but I want to stay on the outside of the curve until heading for the apex, don't I want to look a bit closer periodically, to the outside of the curve, to make sure that's where I go until apexing? I know this sounds a little dense of me, but if one of you guys who know this stuff cold would describe how you handle your vision through a good-sized turn, it would help. Do you move your eyes out and back continually? That's what I've been doing. It's what I did when landing an airplane, and that was critical to giving your brain what it needs to calculate the control inputs to make a smooth touchdown.

Thanks for the input!

[moot]

Good points, But I guess I roll it all under the SMOOTH monicker,

+1 You CANNOT be fast if you are not smooth. I agree that certain techniques such as trail braking are best learned in a controlled environment from a qualified instructor. I have been fortunate enough to have as friends and frequently ride with (1) An instructor at the Streetmasters school in Rosamond Ca (2) An former instructor with Spencer and (3) An instructor at the Yamaha Champion's School. Pick a friend or two that are great riders and spend some time riding with them.

BTW one of Streetmasters main focuses is the late apex concept which is a fundamental concept in the process of learning to pick your line through a corner.

[dwestly]

This has been a great thread and a good read. If I could I'd like to add one other thing that has helped me a lot and I'm surprised no one mentioned it already and that is don't forget to breathe. Racing enduros in tight trees taught me to control my breathing and concentrate on being smooth. Slow down to speed up. It's kind of a yoga thing, and not that different from snow skiing. If you ride within your abilities and work on being smooth and precise and practice deep, rhythmic breathing, you'll soon find yourself carving graceful arcs and perfect apexes. Think in terms of maximizing efficiency. Don't try to beat the bike up in the corners. Relax just a bit, keep a loose and flexible body position, let the bike flow and let the corners come to you.

In racing the real speed is on straightaways and all corners do is connect the straights. So in racing your goal is to use the corner to get the best "run" at the next straight, or if there is a series of corners, to exit one corner in the best possible position to maximize your exit out of the following corner. The primary goal on the track is to get the jump on the next guy to the upcoming straight. Road riding is different in many ways. You have so many more things to factor in: blind corners, gravel, potholes, cars crossing the center line, dogs and deer just to name a few. On the road safety is paramount. Being the fastest guy through the corner doesn't matter much if you're dead.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in complete agreement that track days and riding schools will help immensely. But practice riding within yourself, concentrate on riding smooth, precise and in control and BREATHE and I predict that the speed will come without you even thinking about it. And a fringe benefit is that you'll be comfortably carving apexes all day instead of fighting arm pump and leg cramps.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Actually, in motorcycle racing the majority of a winning rider's technique is in their cornering and braking abilities. It is their ability to correctly judge cornering lines and carry speed through the corners that allows the fast straights. A bike can be faster than a greased pig going down the straight, but if the bike and rider can't carry speed and correct lines through the corners, it doesn't matter...

You are correct about one thing. Being the fastest guy through a corner on a public road is not necessarily a good thing. Public roads are not a racetrack, no matter what the squids think...

[bikerfish1100]

Regarding "looking where you want to go" and "keep the eyes up"...those are things I learned in a skills/safety course I took, but I'd like to drill down to exactly what these terms mean...

Let's say I'm entering a long corner. I "look through the turn", but still need to "look where I want to go". If I keep my eyes all the way through the turn, but I want to stay on the outside of the curve until heading for the apex, don't I want to look a bit closer periodically, to the outside of the curve, to make sure that's where I go until apexing? I know this sounds a little dense of me, but if one of you guys who know this stuff cold would describe how you handle your vision through a good-sized turn, it would help. Do you move your eyes out and back continually? That's what I've been doing. It's what I did when landing an airplane, and that was critical to giving your brain what it needs to calculate the control inputs to make a smooth touchdown.

Thanks for the input!

use your peripheral vision to scan the edges, central vision to follow your line. and yeah, keep your head & eyes moving as you go.

[sedanman]

Regarding "looking where you want to go" and "keep the eyes up"...those are things I learned in a skills/safety course I took, but I'd like to drill down to exactly what these terms mean...

Let's say I'm entering a long corner. I "look through the turn", but still need to "look where I want to go". If I keep my eyes all the way through the turn, but I want to stay on the outside of the curve until heading for the apex, don't I want to look a bit closer periodically, to the outside of the curve, to make sure that's where I go until apexing? I know this sounds a little dense of me, but if one of you guys who know this stuff cold would describe how you handle your vision through a good-sized turn, it would help. Do you move your eyes out and back continually? That's what I've been doing. It's what I did when landing an airplane, and that was critical to giving your brain what it needs to calculate the control inputs to make a smooth touchdown.

Thanks for the input!

What you really need to do is keep your focus as far ahead of the bike as possible and judge your actual location with your peripheral vision and a stored mental image. Lee Parks does an excersise where an object is placed on the floor in front you, you get your bearings then close your eyes and try to pick it up. The object is moved further away and you do it again. You would be amazed at how well you can do this. With a little practice you can do it all of the time. "Looking through the corner" is similar. If you have a good mental picture you don't need a lot of visual reinforcement to know where you are. All of this sounds rediculously complex but broken down a drilled in little steps it does become easier.

[pffog]

...............

Let's say I'm entering a long corner. I "look through the turn", but still need to "look where I want to go". If I keep my eyes all the way through the turn, but I want to stay on the outside of the curve until heading for the apex, don't I want to look a bit closer periodically, to the outside of the curve, to make sure that's where I go until apexing? ...............

In a word NO. First be patient, anything new you try is going to feel foreign and weird when you start doing it. And it takes repetition to improve, that is why track sessions are so valuable, you run the same corners time and time again with out distractions. Once you get that down, the distractions of dogs, deer, cars, gravel etc do not use up your "cornering" brain matter.

Your brain is an amazing tool and believe it or not it remembers what you saw, and what your trajectory was. And peripheral vision, although ignored by what we think we are seeing is still providing input.

Watch racers, they never take the laser like stare from several yards down the track, watch Mogul skiers, or ski racers they never look down to see where the mogul is and the GS racers, at 60mph, can put their skis a cats whisker from the gate.

Trust the force Luke