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Thread: Proficient cornering...

  1. #76
    Biker gunnert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrider View Post
    Yes...I read that somewhere here...about being in position before the turn. I admit that felt a little strange yesterday, but your advice to counter the weight shift ahead of the turn with outside bar is good. Without that, I was heading into the apex too soon.

    This stuff is great...becoming a good rider takes work...which makes it worth doing. Too many people think (especially these days) that there are shortcuts to success. Nope...there never are. That's the way it should be...
    Lee Parks course concentrates on, if I remember correctly, the 12 steps to cornering, covering in sequence from foot position on the pegs to exitting the corner...

  2. #77
    Polar Opposite windypoint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    methinks you meant "decreasing radius"- where the turn gets tighter than it began, often tossing a rider to the outside. an increasing radius corner is one that opens up as you go, and typically allows generous accelerations out of it. pretty rare to crash in increasing radii corners.
    Yep your right.

  3. #78
    Morning Person
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    Thanks, sedanman!

    Quote Originally Posted by sedanman View Post
    Also, don't wait until you are in a turn to move your body around. Get in the body position you want to be in before the turn. Use pressure on the outside (of the turn) to keep going straight. This way the bike is "preloaded" to turn. When you reach your turn point adjust the pressure on the bars and enjoy your turn. The idea is as Lee Parks puts it is to "be as invisible as possible to the bike". I want to take Lee's course again, do level 2 then go to Kieth Codes class etc, etc, etc. If I won lotto, I'd spend all of my time taking riding courses.
    Your comment about the outside bar pressure sunk in. I also read it in Lee Parks' book "Total Control" (which arrived a few days after your post). I've been working on this technique, and all of a sudden, today, it all clicked. Before this, I wasn't putting pressure on the outside bar approaching the turn, and the bike kept falling in to an early apex...which I had to correct. Then, without that pressure, back to another apex I went...all the way through the corner.

    I rode 40 miles up-canyon to a mountain town today, and 40 miles back, using this technique. Not once did I fall into an apex early, and my bike tracked like it was on rails around the turns. When I was ready to go into the apex, I just relaxed the outside pressure, and WHAM!...into the apex I went. Open the throttle, and out of the turn I went. I'm a little tired now, because this took continual thought, but, wow, the effort to "get" this was really worth it.

    Your advice paid off...thank you!

  4. #79
    neanderssance man sedanman's Avatar
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    I didn't invent it. I just tried to put it in plain english. If you go canyon riding for a long day or a few back to back days you'll know you're doing it right if your upper body feels like you've been to a spa and your legs feel like you've been hitting the gym real hard.
    Paul
    "Friends don't let friends ride junk!"
    2011 R1200RT

  5. #80
    Morning Person
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    Quote Originally Posted by sedanman View Post
    I didn't invent it. I just tried to put it in plain english. If you go canyon riding for a long day or a few back to back days you'll know you're doing it right if your upper body feels like you've been to a spa and your legs feel like you've been hitting the gym real hard.
    Funny you should say that...my legs are sore tonight. I did do a good workout this morning before the ride, though...

    And your "plain english" worked just fine. It was exactly what I needed to get it...

  6. #81
    Registered User ANDYVH's Avatar
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    Dwestly is right on! I too am a MSF instructor of many years, but I also have studied many of the techniques of Lee Parks and other riding instructors. No track day, yet. It is a zen like thing when you are in the "flow zone" of riding. It becomes easier, less taxing, more mental than physical, and you do sense a lot more of what the bike and tires are doing because you are telling, and letting the bike do what it is capable of. Suddenly, you find you are smoother, more confident, safer AND quicker through the turns.

    But it takes a lot of prep BEFORE the turn, not once you're in the turn. Hopefully once you're in the turn, you still have the skills to make the bike move/adjust quickly, and the mental balance to not freak out and quickly make minor adjustments. That takes practice and seat time. I too, treat every ride as a learning experience. Which for me started when I began to push my abilities and study what the really good riders do.

    We recently got a S1000RR crash bike in the shop at the local BMW dealer. The 17 year old rider (can you believe that!?), as reported by his father, claimed the bike "wouldn't make the turn" and he lost off when it ran off the road. BULLS**T! The bike would make any turn that I know of in Wisconsin, the RIDER wouldn't make the turn is the problem. Oh, and this same rider wants to know how to get a Power Commander for his S1000RR.

    I took two riders on a demo ride for the dealer Saturday, with me leading on a K1600GTL, they followed on a S1000RR and K1300S. They had both ridden in on older sport bikes, wearing t-shirts, jeans, work boots, helmets. They didn't like that I made them wear jackets for the demo ride. I briefly asked them about counter-steering, because they asked if the ride would have any turns. The word "countersteering" brought back looks of "HUH?" So a brief discussion got them going. They said, "we'll keep up", to which I replied, "don't try, ride your own ride." I backed it way off, and we did fine, but even in the rear view mirrors I could see the lack of skills, very evident.
    Woodenshoe to Cheesehead

  7. #82
    NC Piedmont Rider ncstephen's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=flyrider;814411]Funny you should say that...my legs are sore tonight. I did do a good workout this morning before the ride, though...

    \QUOTE]

    An active riding style takes some getting use to body wise. After very active riding trips spending the day in the mountains my legs too would be sore. After the first two track days, I rode home and went to get off the bike and my legs rebelled. I have found being in better shape really makes time on the bike more enjoyable, things flow better, there is less fatigue, and less recoverly afterwards. It is more than a workout before hand. Stretching and such before hand does help. This year after my schools I only felt a little discomfort. I have been doing some 'boot camp' type things since last fall and will continue them. I never find them 'fun' but I see benefits in lots of places.

    I hope to hear more about your exploits. Glad things are coming together for you!!!!

    So much to learn, so many roads to learn on, oh to be on them!!!

    NCS
    03 K 1200RS (Black is Best)
    03 Honda RC51
    74 Honda CB750 K4

  8. #83
    Morning Person
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    This is really great stuff...keep it coming. I love hearing about others' experiences. It really is coming together for me...and unlike when I rode in the '80's, having a rational basis for the riding skills is truly appealing.

    Now...about those young kids on superbikes, wearing t-shirts and stuff. Insane...see it all the time. Even flip-flops, for #&*#!.

  9. #84
    Registered User ANDYVH's Avatar
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    The "Laws of Natural Selection" certainly still apply to motorcycles.

    Only the strong shall survive.
    Woodenshoe to Cheesehead

  10. #85
    Registered User GKman's Avatar
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    A serious factor that I haven't seen covered are tire tracks that are on public roads that are not on race tracks. Automobile traffic generally runs parallel to the centerline keeping it swept free of gravel sand and other debris. Also cars leak oil, water, antifreeze and grease between the tire treads. At a slight bump one old car or truck after another have a drip fall in the same place. Trying to use the full width of the road or lane steers your tires across this crap. Any time you run the risk losing traction, if it's just starting to rain after a dry spell it virtually guaranteed. I stay in the inside tire track myself.

  11. #86
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GKman View Post
    A serious factor that I haven't seen covered are tire tracks that are on public roads that are not on race tracks. Automobile traffic generally runs parallel to the centerline keeping it swept free of gravel sand and other debris. Also cars leak oil, water, antifreeze and grease between the tire treads. At a slight bump one old car or truck after another have a drip fall in the same place. Trying to use the full width of the road or lane steers your tires across this crap. Any time you run the risk losing traction, if it's just starting to rain after a dry spell it virtually guaranteed. I stay in the inside tire track myself.
    We're talking about curvy two lane roads, right? I believe most of the "experts" recommend the "outside - inside - outside" approach as the general rule. For a left-hand bend you start in the right car track (or even farther to the right if there is no gravel,) move close to the centerline when you see the end of the curve, then accelerate to the right wheel track. For right-hand bends you start in the left wheel track, move to the right wheel track when you see the end of the curve, then accelerate to the left wheel track. For a given speed, this approach gives you the least lean angle and the best sight line for debris on the road and and also approaching vehicles which may be over the centerline. This is also called the "delayed apex" line.

    What I personally find important is to enter the curves slow enough that you can change your line or slightly reduce your speed when there is good reason to.

    I know from sad personal experience just how slippery a road can be in rain after a long dry spell. You need to reduce your speed a LOT on the curves. Try some braking on a straight stretch to get a feel for the available traction. Still, I feel the above advice holds in that situation.

    If "staying on the inside tire track" means you stay close to the centerline on a left-hand bend, picture what would happen when a car comes around that bend half way across your lane.

    I'm no expert and there is a chance I mis-understood you. I always stand correction.
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  12. #87
    Registered User GKman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRIDER View Post
    If "staying on the inside tire track" means you stay close to the centerline on a left-hand bend, picture what would happen when a car comes around that bend half way across your lane.

    I'm no expert and there is a chance I mis-understood you. I always stand correction.
    You understood perfectly. Given the above situation (a head-on approaching) of course I would steer right to a larger radius. Centrifugal force would assist and diminish in the quick maneuver, and there would be less demand for traction crossing the potential mid-lane slipperiness. If there wasn't enough traction there I would quickly be in the clean outside track where the was. From clean to slippery to clean generates a potential for a low-side then high-side crashes but I'm only doing it on the corner meeting the idiot, not every one and even the crash would direct bike and rider away from the head-on.

    Simply the opposite of the decreasing radius line which requires progressively increasing traction force which simply isn't available if entered too fast.

    Agree completely that prudent speed for the conditions yields the best result. You just made me realize that in 47 years, I have never said "I wish I had taken that corner faster". Thanx.

  13. #88
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GKman View Post
    You understood perfectly. Given the above situation (a head-on approaching) of course I would steer right to a larger radius. Centrifugal force would assist and diminish in the quick maneuver, and there would be less demand for traction crossing the potential mid-lane slipperiness. If there wasn't enough traction there I would quickly be in the clean outside track where the was. From clean to slippery to clean generates a potential for a low-side then high-side crashes but I'm only doing it on the corner meeting the idiot, not every one and even the crash would direct bike and rider away from the head-on.

    Simply the opposite of the decreasing radius line which requires progressively increasing traction force which simply isn't available if entered too fast.

    Agree completely that prudent speed for the conditions yields the best result. You just made me realize that in 47 years, I have never said "I wish I had taken that corner faster". Thanx.
    Can you tell us why you prefer the left wheel track to the right wheel track on a left hand curve? Seems to me the latter gives you better visibility of the road and any vehicles enroaching on your lane, plus you are out of their way.

    I suspect both of us are "conservatives" on back road corner speed and you have many more years in the saddle than I. Do you stay on the inside tire track or outside tire track for right hand bends?
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  14. #89
    Registered User GKman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRIDER View Post
    Can you tell us why you prefer the left wheel track to the right wheel track on a left hand curve? Seems to me the latter gives you better visibility of the road and any vehicles enroaching on your lane, plus you are out of their way.

    I suspect both of us are "conservatives" on back road corner speed and you have many more years in the saddle than I. Do you stay on the inside tire track or outside tire track for right hand bends?
    Sure, thanx for the response. I think I may be a little more visible close to the center line rather than blending into the roadside. Also gives me a second chance if I need to divert. I guess the main reason is the old million mile Harley dealer, Jim Magner, taught me to at 16. He said riding in the left tire track gives oncoming (or passing) traffic the message that you own the lane, just like a car, and they don't need to be thinking about using some of it. Don't know how right that is but that's what I do.

  15. #90
    neanderssance man sedanman's Avatar
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    If you ride in the outside track on every corner, two good things happen. First the corner is less severe of a radius and second you have BETTER visibilty through the corner. The whole idea of the "late apex" aproach is to make the turn less sharp and keep the lean angle to a minimum for a longer period of time. If you hug the inside, you are hiding behind the corner and become more of a surprise to oncoming traffic. A lot of people who hug the inside say it gives them room to escape if there is an issue, I say it eats up response time to avoid a car in your lane. Look at my crude diagram to see what I mean. The blue bike sees the red/yellow car before the pink one does and vice versa. I don't think you are giving any oncoming car any message about you owning a lane, they don't see you anyway. The first thing they are going to tell the cop after they mow you over is " I didn't see him, he came out of nowhere"
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    Paul
    "Friends don't let friends ride junk!"
    2011 R1200RT

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