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Thread: Results - Dec '11 Member Survey-Rally & Events

  1. #31
    Ute's Chauffeur
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    I'll throw in my 2 cents here. I am not privy to any of the decision making process (outside of what is available in the forums, magazine, etc.) so this is just my personal opinion. In setting up a national rally for a large diversely located club like ours the final choice will have to be a blending of many different needs with the ultimate goal of offering the best appeal to the widest group of individuals at any one time. This balancing act will also mean that there are members that will not be happy with the decision making process for one reason or another. If you go through these forums I don't think there is one facet of the decision making process that has not been criticized at one time or another.

    Based on previous survey results, my own guesses and bias the average temperature is significantly less important than the sum of non temperature factors, such as vendor participation, riding opportunities, non rally opportunities (near an interesting city, natural resource, etc.) and what is probably the single most important factor, how close is the rally to the the largest population of riders. All things being equal, the closer you are to the largest number of people the more likely you will get a good turn out. These being said it would lead me to believe that we will get more return on our rally investment (return equals members attending) by tweaking the more controllable non-temperature factors to appeal to as many members as possible.

    As for the summer months that time of year likely allows the largest number of members to attend a rally if they choose. For me that should be the first requirement. On a personal note my wife, a college counselor, has a new boss who has
    decided that the counselors should not take vacation during the school year. Are college counselors a large demographic for the MOA? I seriously doubt it but I certainly want the opportunity to attend the rallies, which we have always enjoyed, and yes we were at Bloomsburg and it was hot, but it was better than if we were at Bloomsburg the following year when it wasn't that hot but it was under water.

    The idea to offer the entire calendar year as an option doesn't make much sense. A very large percentage of us ride in parts of the country where how to prep your bike for winter storage gets more attention than planning a route to a rally. I don't have the stats to back that up but I am also willing to not spend money on a survey to definitively answer the question is January a good time to have a national rally.

    Final thoughts, the return rate of the previous MOA survey was much better than industry average, about 8-10%. Statisticians say that a properly selected small group correlates well with the opinions of the larger demographic. That being said posting similar questions in our forum could be done and I would hazard a guess and say the return rate would not be much better.

    The last thing I want to comment on is the tone of some of the posters. The implication (at least that is how it comes across to me) that the BOD is this rigid, member ignoring, fearful of the truth group of individuals is ludicrous. I have not been able to figure out in the least why they would want to be in a volunteer position (I have been in various volunteer positions most of my adult life) and receive this level of aggravation. To these posters what benefit do you believe they receive from being so "inflexible"? As others have said, run, volunteer, change from within. There are no super PACs, secret money or anything else to prevent your voice from being heard/elected in the MOA leadership.

    I have found the present process to be as transparent as I need, sometimes I like the choices and I go sometimes I don't and I stay home. That is probably all we should really expect. Off soapbox, sorry for the length of the post.

  2. #32
    look out!!! Visian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewmeister View Post
    Why survey only 2000 why not EVERYONE?] I just don't understand why this is not done ,period!What do you have against surveying EVERY ONE,might you not like the outcome or what may have to be done(move the rally that you really don't want to do) to remity the situation from a total survey of EVERYONE?? I never saw a survey?
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptRehkopf View Post
    I agree with asking th entire membership via BMWON,
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptRehkopf View Post
    TexPaul,
    I agree, some type of online survey to the whole membership should be considered.
    Quote Originally Posted by nytrashman View Post
    it really is not all that hard to put an end this ongoing discussion every year. conduct an honest survey of all the members.
    If the definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior, then by answering this question you can assume that I am totally nucking futz.

    If you survey the entire membership then your results will be skewed toward the opinion of people who are predisposed to answer surveys.

    This is referred to as self selection bias.

    Self selection error greatly increases the risk of making decisions based on an inaccurate measure of the entire population, e.g. people who wish to share their opinion the most.

    Ian

  3. #33
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    I don't think sampling 2,000 or 20,000 would change the results.

    2,000 questionnaires sent out randomly should give a representative cross section.

    After all, do political pollsters poll 40 million people at a time to get a feel for voter's preferences? No, they poll 1,000.

  4. #34
    Old man in the mountains osbornk's Avatar
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    It might be wise if the complainers and whiners would consider the options.

    This is beginning to remind me of my mother's side of the family. A cousin and I handled the annual family reunion for many years. Other cousins and their spouses kept complaining about the time we had it and the location we chose. My cousin and I got frustrated and fed up. We turned the reunion over to them. We have not had a reunion since.

    Many people grumble and complain but when it is time to actually do something, they are nowhere to be found.
    'You can say what you want about the South, but I almost never hear of anyone wanting to retire to the North.

  5. #35
    Registered User CaptRehkopf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osbornk View Post
    Many people grumble and complain but when it is time to actually do something, they are nowhere to be found.
    I'm confused, in your opinion what exactly does it take to 'do something/change' the dates of events that haven't been scheduled? In my opinion, all it takes is a change of mindset, nothing fiscal or physical 'to do'. Or am I missing something?
    Ride Safe,
    Robert
    Ride Safe,
    Robert Rehkopf

  6. #36
    Registered User CaptRehkopf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osbornk View Post
    It might be wise if the complainers and whiners would consider the options. .
    You're correct, that is exactly what I think some members would like to see, sometype of options! And I don't mean mid-June thru July as the only option. What about sometime in the other 10 1/2 months as an option?
    Ride Safe,
    Robert
    Ride Safe,
    Robert Rehkopf

  7. #37
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    Cross posted from the "Too Hot" thread.

    Robert,

    The forum is a great place for members to discuss things with each other. You can tell from my post count that I discuss a lot of things. With the post count over 200 on this thread, and with 88 different posters, there certainly has been a lot of discussion on this topic. However, BOD members don't monitor the forum. It is not an effective way to provide them with your concerns and ideas.

    Have you sent an e-mail to the BOD expressing your concerns? If not, why not? It is easy to do: Board@moa.org . If so, have you received a response? I would suggest that you will get a much quicker response than posting here on this issue. During the several years of membership ,I've been told by several BOD members that very few folks bother to communicate with them directly.

    The future of MOA is dependent on may different things, the Rally being one of them. I'm not sure that we can continue to exist for the next 20 years without attracting younger people who have multiple activities competing for their time and resources. What suits me, a retired old phart who can go to a Rally any time during they year, may not be the best criteria to make decisions on how we continue to exist and grow as an organization.

    Challenges abound. Hopefully we will find ways to meet those challenges as we look to the future.

    As an aside, while we were burning up in S. Illinois the last of July, my daughter-in-law and granddaughter were enjoying the cool temps of the Florida panhandle. Who would have picked Destin, FL for a summer motorcycle rally?
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  8. #38
    Registered User CaptRehkopf's Avatar
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    Bud,
    I have talked with a board member at the IBA Meeting in Denver and all she could say was refer to the results of the poll, and that was gospel! She caught me off guard because I hadn't heard of a poll nor did I remember taking it You know us old farts forget everything. She acted like the poll was the bees knees and that was that and the 'membership' had spoken. So, I figured I was certainly in the minority and that was that. However, I didn't realize that the poll was only given to 2,000 members and that only 7xx had replied and THAT the only time frame for the response was mid-June thru July, I was shocked to say the least. I suffered in both Bloomsburg and Sedalia and was thinking that something is wrong with the process. Now I understand and IMHO the process was/is completely biased and I can't figure out why. Teacher, school students, young people, etc. are handed up as reasons but no one offers any evidence or any 'scientific' data or the meta-data behind these belief's. Do you have anything but a feeling that younger members WANT obliviously hot summer Rally dates? Maybe there is proof and maybe there isn't. All I know is a friend vender wasn't happy, the Rally wasn't a good deal for his company, and he attributed it to the lack of attendance. I know the Rally wasn't a good deal for me because I suffered in the heat and sun. Not one square foot of shade in club camping area!

    Also if the BOD doesn't monitor what is being said on their on site then I'd say there something wrong with that too!

    Yes, I have contacted the BOD, but not about Rally dates. I was concerned that because of cost the filling of the BOD and the Voting process is/maybe going to change. I asked what cost $13K to elect someone and Ray said they reduced the cost to about $6K and that was mainly for postage. It just goes to show you why we need to make tons of money at the Rally to pay for election process that can afford to mail ballots to 100% of the members, and if need be a second mailing because to get all the positions filled. I don't care for 'appointed' BOD members, just my personal problem.

    I also have the believe that common sense will prevail and the dates will be, shall I say more 'suitable'. I still can't get over the 'one' option in the poll mid-June thru July.

    I'm not sure about Rally mentality anyway, why couldn't someone couldn't turn off the flames at Bloomsburg? tell them to go to the other end of the area and flame away!

    I also know that the members come first and the staff second, so I'm looking for leadership in the hot sun shall I say, ie a BOD camping area without one square foot of shade, or rain protection, and the furthest away from any restroom facilities. Ray's was in the military he knows these things, troops first.

    Thanks for the advice and I very much appreciate your point(s) of view. I like you worry about the future if we continue to drive people away. I have said in my other threads that the BOD needs to offer the membership a 'good deal' because you can't drive people away from a good deal. It is their singular responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIBUD View Post
    Cross posted from the "Too Hot" thread.

    Robert,

    The forum is a great place for members to discuss things with each other. You can tell from my post count that I discuss a lot of things. With the post count over 200 on this thread, and with 88 different posters, there certainly has been a lot of discussion on this topic. However, BOD members don't monitor the forum. It is not an effective way to provide them with your concerns and ideas.

    Have you sent an e-mail to the BOD expressing your concerns? If not, why not? It is easy to do: Board@moa.org . If so, have you received a response? I would suggest that you will get a much quicker response than posting here on this issue. During the several years of membership ,I've been told by several BOD members that very few folks bother to communicate with them directly.

    The future of MOA is dependent on may different things, the Rally being one of them. I'm not sure that we can continue to exist for the next 20 years without attracting younger people who have multiple activities competing for their time and resources. What suits me, a retired old phart who can go to a Rally any time during they year, may not be the best criteria to make decisions on how we continue to exist and grow as an organization.

    Challenges abound. Hopefully we will find ways to meet those challenges as we look to the future.

    As an aside, while we were burning up in S. Illinois the last of July, my daughter-in-law and granddaughter were enjoying the cool temps of the Florida panhandle. Who would have picked Destin, FL for a summer motorcycle rally?
    Ride Safe,
    Robert Rehkopf

  9. #39
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptRehkopf View Post
    Bud,
    I have talked with a board member at the IBA Meeting in Denver and all she could say was refer to the results of the poll, and that was gospel! She caught me off guard because I hadn't heard of a poll nor did I remember taking it You know us old farts forget everything. She acted like the poll was the bees knees and that was that and the 'membership' had spoken. So, I figured I was certainly in the minority and that was that. However, I didn't realize that the poll was only given to 2,000 members and that only 7xx had replied and THAT the only time frame for the response was mid-June thru July, I was shocked to say the least. I suffered in both Bloomsburg and Sedalia and was thinking that something is wrong with the process. Now I understand and IMHO the process was/is completely biased and I can't figure out why. Teacher, school students, young people, etc. are handed up as reasons but no one offers any evidence or any 'scientific' data or the meta-data behind these belief's. Do you have anything but a feeling that younger members WANT obliviously hot summer Rally dates? Maybe there is proof and maybe there isn't. All I know is a friend vender wasn't happy, the Rally wasn't a good deal for his company, and he attributed it to the lack of attendance. I know the Rally wasn't a good deal for me because I suffered in the heat and sun. Not one square foot of shade in club camping area!

    Also if the BOD doesn't monitor what is being said on their on site then I'd say there something wrong with that too!

    Yes, I have contacted the BOD, but not about Rally dates. I was concerned that because of cost the filling of the BOD and the Voting process is/maybe going to change. I asked what cost $13K to elect someone and Ray said they reduced the cost to about $6K and that was mainly for postage. It just goes to show you why we need to make tons of money at the Rally to pay for election process that can afford to mail ballots to 100% of the members, and if need be a second mailing because to get all the positions filled. I don't care for 'appointed' BOD members, just my personal problem.

    I also have the believe that common sense will prevail and the dates will be, shall I say more 'suitable'. I still can't get over the 'one' option in the poll mid-June thru July.

    I'm not sure about Rally mentality anyway, why couldn't someone couldn't turn off the flames at Bloomsburg? tell them to go to the other end of the area and flame away!

    I also know that the members come first and the staff second, so I'm looking for leadership in the hot sun shall I say, ie a BOD camping area without one square foot of shade, or rain protection, and the furthest away from any restroom facilities. Ray's was in the military he knows these things, troops first.

    Thanks for the advice and I very much appreciate your point(s) of view. I like you worry about the future if we continue to drive people away. I have said in my other threads that the BOD needs to offer the membership a 'good deal' because you can't drive people away from a good deal. It is their singular responsibility.
    Robert,

    I also appreciate you concern about the continued viability of the MOA.

    I would suggest that with all the BOD has on their plates, monitoring the forum would be pretty low down on their lists. That's why I suggested you e-mail them. I have always gotten a response from them when I contacted them by e-mail. They really are trying to do the right thing for the organization and the members.

    I consider you one of the "loyal opposition" who isn't just trying to be argumentative or critical of the BOD but looking for a solution to a problem. Hope to meet you on the road and I will buy the first beverage.

    BTW They can't drive me away as I'm a Lifetime Member.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  10. #40
    Registered User CaptRehkopf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIBUD View Post
    I would suggest that with all the BOD has on their plates, monitoring the forum would be pretty low down on their lists.
    Bud,
    I'm going to have to re-read the ON and see what is taking so much of their time beside changing the by-laws.

    Ray, Benny (head HOG at the time) and myself, a couple of years ago went on a crusade to make USAA re-insure motorcycles, but we lost. Maybe changing Rally dates might be easier.

    I won't be at the MOA Rally, but will try my first RA at Asheville. I can't make the Founder's Feast with Alan to check out his new HID Fuegos (my idea), but the next of town rides will be The Void Rally, then the I-BMW Arkansas Hillbilly Rally in Jasper, AR, and maybe Bike Octoberfest or as I call it an excuse to visit friends in FL.

    Ride Safe, AND watch out for bad storms that can lead to large (8" diameter, 40 foot long), tree limbs falling on you as you ride, similar to Wednesday before last!

    Robert
    Ride Safe,
    Robert Rehkopf

  11. #41
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    I will keep my eyes out for those limbs.

    I've attended many BOD meetings. Each member is on several committees and they have multiple conference calls between each meeting. They are doing a lot more than making changes to the by-laws.

    If you e-mail them at Board@bmwmoa.org and don't get a reply, I would be surprised and I would also call Greg (phone number in the ON) and ask why.

    Perhaps we will meet up in Asheville.
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

  12. #42
    look out!!! Visian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIBUD View Post
    Who would have picked Destin, FL for a summer motorcycle rally?
    I would have...

    I researched several locations in Florida and other coastal areas throughout the southeast, but these areas have been judged as "too hot" in July.

    whatevah!!!

  13. #43
    Still Wondering mika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptRehkopf View Post
    ...heavily snipped...

    Also if the BOD doesn't monitor what is being said on their on site then I'd say there something wrong with that too!

    ...heavily snipped...
    FWIW as a side bar. The forum has never been a formal tool for communication between the BoD and the membership. This is a combination of the intended forum purpose, by-laws in place at the time and a cultural norm that developed as the forum itself developed. The corporate entity called the BoD is not required to monitor the forum and really can not effectively engage in a conversation on the forum. Individual members of the BoD do monitor the forum as their life and interests permit. When they post and engage in forum discussions they do so as individual members and our peers. The moderating team has always allowed wide latitude for comments and observations about the BoD corporate entity while defending and holding accountable individual BoD members as they participate as forum peers.

    Conversely the forum's purpose of being a member meeting place to discuss and debate the MOA issues of the day by membership is often forgotten. It is a place to whine , complain and get it out of our psyche. It also is a place where ideas can be put out as trial balloons, vetted and gather support.
    Last edited by Mika; 09-18-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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  14. #44
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visian View Post
    I would have...

    I researched several locations in Florida and other coastal areas throughout the southeast, but these areas have been judged as "too hot" in July.

    whatevah!!!

    Same here!

    Considering the temps we've 'enjoyed' in Bloomsburg and Sedalia, I'd be the first bike thru the gate at a Florida Rally site.

    The Sunshine State deserves more respect.
    Kevin Greenwald - Touring Tips Editor
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  15. #45
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    While I think FL has great possibilities for a spring rally or a late fall rally it is otherwise not among the better places to ride overall. It's flat! It is in fact hot, particularly in certain months. It can have a heavy snowbird or tourist burden on roads & lodging/camping. We go there for a bit in the winter for state pks & to fish & it is nigh on impossible to get a campsite! I have done the get on your computer to the hour! eleven months prior to arrival & still campsites are taken. Sure if you go to a non beach area in the heat of summer, but then your back to my point-why go to FL in the summer?

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