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Thread: Advanced Rider's Course

  1. #31
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    in my translation, "streets" means a paved road.
    and yes, preferably a curvy one. unless its a very curvy one, which is even better.

    who "rides" in town? that's just commuting, running errands, leaving town to go somewhere, but its not "riding".
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 39520 View Post
    I took the MSF advanced class on a wooden-clutch Moto Morini 350 about 25 years ago. It was fun and all, but the whole weekend I kept thinking that I could be spending my time riding in the mountains... They asked me to come back as an instructor but I passed on that.

    I had about 2 years experience in WERA/AMA road racing at the time of the MSF class. MSF has something to offer, for sure, but the track is where you work on your PhD level of motorcycle education. I did a CLASS class 2 years ago at VIR and I had an adrenaline buzz for hours afterward. Highly recommended.
    Tell me more about which classes you woumd recommend at VIR. I live very near and have been looking for some track education.

  3. #33
    2011 R1200RT ka5ysy's Avatar
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    Just to clarify:
    MSF has renamed some courses, and is causing confusion all over the place.

    The BRC (basic rider course) is still the same course at present (there are changes coming to this too!)

    The original ERC/ARC (Experienced rider course or Advanced rider course) is now called BRC-2 and is essentially some of the BRC exercises with add-on exercises ridden on your personal bike.

    The NEW ARC (Advanced Rider Course) really is a new course and material designed to be ridden at speeds considerably above the BRC or BRC-2. The range setups are totally new, and very challenging due to the speeds involved. The exercises are designed to teach real-world skills. For many riders, it will be the first time they have ever dragged the feeler pegs or touched their boot toes to the ground in turns at speed. Even long-term riders will find this to be a fun, informative course that will refresh skills mostly never used or practiced. Everybody who has taken the class leaves with a huge smile on their faces.
    Doug, 2011 R1200RT Polar Metallic
    MSF #127350 NAUI #36288

  4. #34
    Registered User dmftoy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ka5ysy View Post
    Just to clarify

    The original ERC/ARC (Experienced rider course or Advanced rider course) is now called BRC-2 and is essentially some of the BRC exercises with add-on exercises ridden on your personal bike.
    Firm believer in training.

    Always been curious how you do some of the MSF courses on your own bike if it can't turn as tight? I can ride the figure 8 in the box easily on my KLR, but on my bmw k1600 not so much.

    How do they account for that in the course?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmftoy1 View Post
    Firm believer in training.

    Always been curious how you do some of the MSF courses on your own bike if it can't turn as tight? I can ride the figure 8 in the box easily on my KLR, but on my bmw k1600 not so much.

    How do they account for that in the course?
    We have you work on the technique aspects, and let the tighter performance develop as you progress. No "box" in the ARC-ST; the only "tight turn" exercise is an offset weave.
    I've not ridden a new K in the box, but can do it in the std 20' on my R11S, and on my K11RS and my Ducati 900SS when I owned those. With only 23 degs lock-to-lock, that Duc was tough. but a friend of mine could do with box on my SS with his teenage son as passenger. It really is all about good technique. And trust. Keep practicing!

    In the BRC2, the box gets expanded to 24 & 28 feet for bigger bikes. If testing as a license waiver, a big bike can use the 24' dimension.
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  6. #36
    Registered User dmftoy1's Avatar
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    Thanks for that. I guess I'll have to give it a shot just for the challenge.

  7. #37
    2011 R1200RT ka5ysy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmftoy1 View Post
    Firm believer in training.

    Always been curious how you do some of the MSF courses on your own bike if it can't turn as tight? I can ride the figure 8 in the box easily on my KLR, but on my bmw k1600 not so much.

    How do they account for that in the course?
    Actually, it can be done easily. One of the secrets of the box for the big bikes and especially for those with floorboards, is to slide yourself off the seat toward the outside of the turn to get the counterweighting to work properly. Foot forward setups make weighting the pegs impossible. The other big secret is that you have to run the box at above walking speed a bit so the bike can hold itself up. Most people having trouble with the U-Turns are trying to do them too slowly, or are not counterweighting properly. It is easy to ride the box at some speed without the counterweighting if you get the speed set correctly to begin with, and hold constant throttle. Playing with the throttle any during the figure 8 will cause you to have to deal with multiple control inputs, (throttle, clutch, rear brake) and blend them appropriately.

    You can start practicing by setting a center point with a cone or tennis ball cut in half. Start turning around the center point, looking only at the center point marker, and tighten the turn as you get comfortable by closing in on the center. You will discover how easily the bike holds itself in turns with the correct speed. Do this left and right and get comfortable, and you will find the box maneuvers, and any U-Turns quite easy to do.

    Most folks have the problem of subconsciously worrying about dropping their expensive bike, and react accordingly: it is a mental block you have to work through.

    As noted, the MSF course (BRC-2 now, old advanced) uses three outside widths: 28, 24 and 20. We start the large bikes at the 28 foot width, and work inward. Many, once they realize the tricks noted above, can do the 20 foot box. Some never believe their large, heavy bikes can U-turn in the 28 foot width. Again, mostly a mental block. The one exception I will acknowledge is that some guys show up on slammed down raked out choppers and simply cannot lean far enough to even stay inside half the range width !

    A favorite story from one of my lady students: She and her husband both road Harley Fatboy bikes. Getting turned around in the 25 foot wide driveway of their home was always problematic, and they specifically wanted to master the box and U-turns. She did and he did not. Several months after they were in the class, both rode up to the range and he went inside the dealership. She came out with a huge grin on her face and told us that she could ride up the driveway and make a clean U-turn without stopping. He could not and always did the W turn, much to his chagrin. She was quite proud of being a better rider than her husband.
    Doug, 2011 R1200RT Polar Metallic
    MSF #127350 NAUI #36288

  8. #38
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    While I agree that those with track-days experience and actual racing background may feel there is nothing to learn in the ARC, there are skills taught in the ARC that help in the day to day riding on city streets and in tighter confines. Some of the skills applied are like those the motocops learn. And anything taught that helps us keep the rubber down and the bike up are worthwhile and potentially $$$$ saving skills.

  9. #39
    Registered User motorman587's Avatar
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    I believe people are missing the point on training. For some it can make your riding skills better and for others it will keep your skills sharp. For me, I go to training with an open mind. I have been to so many motorcycle training classes or course. Even became an instructor/coach. My point is an ERC (BRC2) is to either make you a better rider or just keep those skill sharp.
    John
    2004 BMW R1150R Black
    Contact me 4 (1&1) training, Expert witness in motorcycle crash reconstruction

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    Kevin- not sure if you realize it, but we have offered multiple sessions of the ARC-ST at the last 2 nationals,
    and that both times, they were taught on sites that did not previosuly have any range at all (high school parking lot in Redmond, and a mall parking lot last year).
    we were not able to secure a site at this year's rally.

    IMO, The BRC2 (ex-ERC) is a good course for a (slightly) experienced rider, for one who has never taken any type off formal training, or someone who just wans to shake off the cobwebs or have someone observe their riding actions to help them make some adjustments.
    The ARC however, is the ****z, and is a totally awesome course, which will push your comfort zone and skill sets to a new level.
    This year, we held UBBRC, BRC2, Total Control, Camp Gears Dirt school, and had scheduled (but regrettably canceled due to lack of registrants) a Sidecar/Trike course, StreetMasters, and Chris Peris Riding School. A plus was three seminars by David Hough and Coach Stroud where they discussed the theory behind slow-speed, sidecar, and high-speed cornering on dirt and asphalt. After the seminars they went their separate ways to parking lots with small exercises setup.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ka5ysy View Post
    Just to clarify:
    MSF has renamed some courses, and is causing confusion all over the place.

    The BRC (basic rider course) is still the same course at present (there are changes coming to this too!)

    The original ERC/ARC (Experienced rider course or Advanced rider course) is now called BRC-2 and is essentially some of the BRC exercises with add-on exercises ridden on your personal bike.

    The NEW ARC (Advanced Rider Course) really is a new course and material designed to be ridden at speeds considerably above the BRC or BRC-2. The range setups are totally new, and very challenging due to the speeds involved. The exercises are designed to teach real-world skills. For many riders, it will be the first time they have ever dragged the feeler pegs or touched their boot toes to the ground in turns at speed. Even long-term riders will find this to be a fun, informative course that will refresh skills mostly never used or practiced. Everybody who has taken the class leaves with a huge smile on their faces.
    +1. My wife and I teach a range of courses to include the ARC as well as the course it was derived from, the Military Sportbike Riders Course (MSRC). The course is designed to apply real-world riding issues in a fast-paced classroom curriculum, as well as to give riders the opportunity to advance their skills on the range. It provides a great follow-on to the basic rider courses, once a rider has some experience.

    That being said, I also have to agree that you really do get your PhD in street bike handling skills on the track. Track riding, when done right by starting with a good track school and mentoring, provides a rider with the opportunity to really explore and advance their bike handling skill limits in a relatively safe (in reality much safer than on the street) environment. My wife and I have been riding track now for several years and have been to a number of track/race schools. We are also firmly committed track junkies, as are most who start down this road, LOL. Riding track changes your approach to street riding. Contrary to what people may think, a lot of mature riders who spend time on the track usually end up slowing down and becoming more deliberate on the street. You become more conscious of the dynamics of riding. Things like traction, lean angles, bike suspension response, braking, cornering, road surface conditions, etc., take on new meaning and you begin to recognize how inconsistent many of these can be on the street. You also become hyper-aware of other dangers (like the insane drivers on the road...). Also, when an emergency situation arises on the street, track-honed response skills come in really handy! Once you miss a downshift at 130 mph going into a series of S-turns on the track and have literally a split second to figure out how to save the line without piling in, you find that most street situations just don't rate that kind of response. Ask me how I know... I rarely ride my track bike on the street, only enough to keep it fresh between track days. I actually prefer my GS as a daily mount, or to take a collector bike out for a spin.

    If you're looking to really advance your skills, take the advanced MSF course(s), and then when you're ready, find a good track introductory course. You'll be amazed at what it can do for your riding!

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