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Thread: 1st gear or neutral at stops?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeabeckS View Post
    Most of the time I just keep it in gear, unless I'm at tied up in traffic (with everyone stopped behind me) at a big intersection with long light delays. Then neutral until my lane begins to move again.

    there's a guy who actually thinks..... bravo!

  2. #77
    NC Piedmont Rider ncstephen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBeemer View Post
    He hasn't got a leg to stand on.


    Love it!

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  3. #78
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    Years ago I finished "the last inches of braking" with the front brake on a wet road, my wife as a passenger. Front brake locked and we were instantly horizontal though not hurt. Now I let the back brake do the job for those last inches or feet. If it skids at 2 mph, no problem. So left foot down for me.

    Completely agree with the idea of building a set of habits for these common place events which work in all conditions, dry or rain, level-uphill -downhill stop.
    Doug
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  4. #79
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboRider View Post
    I think that safety, like for pilots, is doing it the same way all the time, and following a checklist or procedure. Right foot on the rear brake, in gear, is in my opinion the best way to be prepared (with exit space in front).

    Sure, if a car stops behind me, I might pop it in neutral and adjust my gear or tighten my helmet or whatever, but otherwise, 1st gear left foot down is the way to go.
    Your analogy to pilot training is insightful. Many NTSB reports that I read (have my EAA hat on now) cite the fact that deviation from basic skills and procedures (checklists/training) often result in the crash of an aircraft that could otherwise have been kept under control.

    Same is true in motorcycling. As an MSF instructor, while there are a few elements of the BRC class that riders could evolve away from in time, it really does consist of basic skills that, for lack of a better word, remain "basic" throughout your lifetime on two wheels. You'd be better off spending less time and effort resisting that premise, and more time perfecting their use thru repetition.

    Most of the motorcycle crashes I have investigated as a former LEO, and the almost embarrassing skill level I've seen with many ERC students, demonstrate that this distaste of the MSF curriculum and the volitile criticism it takes on this Forum is, as we would say in the law enforcement venacular, "lacking foundation and credibility."

    There is nothing anal about left foot down first, since your right foot should be involved in the reinforcing of good combination braking / be in first gear at the stop / be mindful of what's approaching from the rear / leave space from the vehicle ahead of you so that "you not only have a plan of escape, but also a path of escape."

    Neutral if enough vehicles behind you are stopped to make an adjustment, take fluid, etc.? Of course.

    But there are more cyclists (and pilots) still around today because they followed basic procedures rather than got 'creative' and went rogue to prove they knew better.

    Ride safe and often.
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  5. #80
    Bikes, Guitars, and ... beemokat's Avatar
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    Last night, at a stop light with no traffic, I tried putting my right foot down instead of my left. It felt so foreign to me that I couldn't stay that way even for the short duration of the light. Talk about ingrained habit!
    Wherever you go, there you are.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenwald View Post
    Your analogy to pilot training is insightful. Many NTSB reports that I read (have my EAA hat on now) cite the fact that deviation from basic skills and procedures (checklists/training) often result in the crash of an aircraft that could otherwise have been kept under control.

    Same is true in motorcycling. As an MSF instructor, while there are a few elements of the BRC class that riders could evolve away from in time, it really does consist of basic skills that, for lack of a better word, remain "basic" throughout your lifetime on two wheels. You'd be better off spending less time and effort resisting that premise, and more time perfecting their use thru repetition.

    Most of the motorcycle crashes I have investigated as a former LEO, and the almost embarrassing skill level I've seen with many ERC students, demonstrate that this distaste of the MSF curriculum and the volitile criticism it takes on this Forum is, as we would say in the law enforcement venacular, "lacking foundation and credibility."

    There is nothing anal about left foot down first, since your right foot should be involved in the reinforcing of good combination braking / be in first gear at the stop / be mindful of what's approaching from the rear / leave space from the vehicle ahead of you so that "you not only have a plan of escape, but also a path of escape."

    Neutral if enough vehicles behind you are stopped to make an adjustment, take fluid, etc.? Of course.

    But there are more cyclists (and pilots) still around today because they followed basic procedures rather than got 'creative' and went rogue to prove they knew better.

    Ride safe and often.

    Well, as a pilot with over 12000 hours in 9 different types, including 747, MD11 and Airbus A330 can tell you that you are correct, deviation from SOP is generally bad and can lead to accidents.... HOWEVER, the stubborn adherence to it can also do the same... testament the Swiss Air MD11 that wend down over Halifax because the captain insisted he run thru the entire smoke removal check list rather than apply his "emergency authority" to deviate to the nearest airport and land. I too once had a smoke in the cockpit on a small Jet and completely blew off the check list and pointed to the nearest airport to land, and with what little time we had during this I applied "pilot systems knowledge" to shed some of this some of the smoke.

    Back to Motorcycles.... I don't disagree with you that good technique is important, but there is a difference between SOP, Technique and Technieger (that's what you get when you fuse SOP and technique)... Wearing a safety helmet should be SOP; as should being in first gear when at a stoplight or stop sign and no car is behind you or in front of you... but if you're boxed in by cars on all sides, and in traffic, stopped due to "rush hour"... WHY remain in 1st of nobody around you is moving? The only thing I can think of is the guy behind you might die of a heart attack and his foot come off the brakes and then rolls into you.... but that's as likely to happen as a clutch cable snapping and causing your bike to leap into traffic, right? As to left foot.. I didn't catch that you are teaching left foot down FIRST... I had thought I understood that it was left foot down, right foot on the brake, ALL THE TIME while stopped which I found unnecessarily ridged. I can see your point on this and agree with it... so long as I get to put BOTH feet down when I'm done stopping!

    In Aviation you want good pilots, who know how to fly but that then follow SOP in standard day to day operations, however they can think for themselves because they're fast on the fly and can think outside the box when needed. I think the same can apply to any vehicle, but sometimes we have to teach to the least common denominator and that frankly bugs me. The US mentality that EVERYONE has the right to drive a car or ride a bike leads to idiots who sit in the left lane at 55 while cars are forced to pass on the right, or dumb teenagers driving mommy's SUV while texting.. and a motorcycle death rate far higher than most other countries in the western world... again, lack of training, but more importantly lack of adherence to a basic level of skill AND Judgement needed to get licensed..

  7. #82
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1200RClassic View Post
    Well, as a pilot with over 12000 hours in 9 different types, including 747, MD11 and Airbus A330 can tell you that you are correct, deviation from SOP is generally bad and can lead to accidents.... HOWEVER, the stubborn adherence to it can also do the same... testament the Swiss Air MD11 that wend down over Halifax because the captain insisted he run thru the entire smoke removal check list rather than apply his "emergency authority" to deviate to the nearest airport and land. I too once had a smoke in the cockpit on a small Jet and completely blew off the check list and pointed to the nearest airport to land, and with what little time we had during this I applied "pilot systems knowledge" to shed some of this some of the smoke.

    Back to Motorcycles.... I don't disagree with you that good technique is important, but there is a difference between SOP, Technique and Technieger (that's what you get when you fuse SOP and technique)... Wearing a safety helmet should be SOP; as should being in first gear when at a stoplight or stop sign and no car is behind you or in front of you... but if you're boxed in by cars on all sides, and in traffic, stopped due to "rush hour"... WHY remain in 1st of nobody around you is moving? The only thing I can think of is the guy behind you might die of a heart attack and his foot come off the brakes and then rolls into you.... but that's as likely to happen as a clutch cable snapping and causing your bike to leap into traffic, right?

    In Aviation you want good pilots, who know how to fly but that then follow SOP in standard day to day operations, however they can think for themselves because they're fast on the fly and can think outside the box when needed. I think the same can apply to any vehicle, but sometimes we have to teach to the least common denominator and that frankly bugs me. The US mentality that EVERYONE has the right to drive a car or ride a bike leads to idiots who sit in the left lane at 55 while cars are forced to pass on the right, or dumb teenagers driving mommy's SUV while texting.. and a motorcycle death rate far higher than most other countries in the western world... again, lack of training, but more importantly lack of adherence to a basic level of skill AND Judgement needed to get licensed..
    Excellent points. You and I actually converge on basically everything. If you look, I even mentioned that, if a sufficient crash barrier (other vehicles) behind you, nothing wrong with neutral.

    I admire your flight resume and thank you for all the passengers you safely got to their destinations. Too often we're in a hurry to disembark and forget to say "Thanks" or "Nice landing" (You 'grease' all yours, right?!).

    Fly straight and level and ride safe!
    Kevin Greenwald - Touring Tips Editor
    Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Motor Officer (Ret.) / IBA Member #34281
    MSF RiderCoach # 121656 (BRC,SBRC,IS,IME,SMARTrainer)
    Motorcycle/Driving Instructor - ROAD AMERICA Race Track

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenwald View Post
    Excellent points. You and I actually converge on basically everything. If you look, I even mentioned that, if a sufficient crash barrier (other vehicles) behind you, nothing wrong with neutral.

    I admire your flight resume and thank you for all the passengers you safely got to their destinations. Too often we're in a hurry to disembark and forget to say "Thanks" or "Nice landing" (You 'grease' all yours, right?!).

    Fly straight and level and ride safe!
    You're right, I think we see this exactly the same, and likewise Kevin, tanks for teaching future riders to be safe and prepared for the worse! Wish you could impart common sense, but sadly I've found this cannot be taught.

  9. #84
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeemoKat View Post
    Last night, at a stop light with no traffic, I tried putting my right foot down instead of my left. It felt so foreign to me that I couldn't stay that way even for the short duration of the light. Talk about ingrained habit!
    Pretty much the same here...and seriously crowned roads around here make a larger hazard of no touchdown when near the shoulder and trying to plop a right foot down.
    Steve Henson
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsuited View Post
    Another thing taught at the BRC: as you come to a stop, your left foot reaches down to the pavement. This teaches you to use both brakes as you stop. It also allows you to hold position on a steep uphill grade at a light, using your right foot on the rear brake.

    Harry
    +1

  11. #86
    Hear that ticking sound? jnerges's Avatar
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    This is a great thread! Well done discussions. I agree about the misunderstanding of the word basic, seems the more basic, the more important it is.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1200RClassic View Post
    there's a guy who actually thinks..... bravo!
    Naw...but since this is my 49th year riding motos I've just gotten some habits ingrained. It helps to have started my riding career just after the dinosaurs went extinct...

    Cheers! (But only after the days riding is done)
    Bill Johnston

  13. #88
    Registered User der verge's Avatar
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    Personally, I keep it in gear until no only have I stopped, but at least a few cars behind me have come to a stop as well. I figure if someone come barreling through fast enough to push 3 or 4 cars foreward enough to contact me, I more than likely would not see/notice/react fast enough to make any difference. Also, being a stubby legged person on a LT, both feet come down simultaneously. On the little bike, left foot first, just because that is what has been pounded in to the skull.....
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by der verge View Post
    Personally, I keep it in gear until no only have I stopped, but at least a few cars behind me have come to a stop as well. I figure if someone come barreling through fast enough to push 3 or 4 cars foreward enough to contact me, I more than likely would not see/notice/react fast enough to make any difference. Also, being a stubby legged person on a LT, both feet come down simultaneously. On the little bike, left foot first, just because that is what has been pounded in to the skull.....

    that's a VERY good point, I might try to start doing that actually... very well put.

    on a side note, I sat in 1st position at a red light today for what must have felt like 10 minutes.... kept it in 1st, but GOD my hand was getting tired! I would love to lighten the clutch feel without messing with it too much.

  15. #90
    One Man Wolfpack Kent Niederhofer's Avatar
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    Neutral or First

    I put my bike into neutral at stops though I generally check what's happening behind me "with one eye" as I approach the stop. If I sense that the driver behind me isn't aware of what's happening I'll pull further forward or off to the side. I seemed to recall that keeping the bike in first and clutch disengaged will increase the wear on the throw-out bearing though I'm not sure what the design life of that component is and haven't had one go on any bike I've owned. I haven't taken an MSF course yet but intend to do so -- it will be interesting to learn what they advise.

    Kent

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