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Thread: Its all YOUR fault,.........first.

  1. #16
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    Even though I agree with taking responsibility for your own actions. In the USA, you are never supposed to admit fault to any official third party. You can tell your friends it was your fault. You can accept it as your fault personally, but try to avoid admitting fault on record. By admitting fault in the USA, you expose yourself to extra litigation which may be more painful than the accident itself.

  2. #17
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    I agree and thanks for another viewpoint. The responsibility, and the "fault" I refer to is a way to formulate an attitude of self preservation instead of falsely relying on others to do it for you. By saying, "my fault first" simply puts the responsibility on me to always ride my best ride.

    In a court of law, or before an officer, or a witness for that matter, it becomes the facts of the results alone. If a car turned left in front of me and did not yield my right of way, the law determines who is at fault. I would regard my actions before the crash as part of my learning and attitude development, but the law of the road still applies.

    Conversely, like mentioned earlier, some riders feel justified to put obnoxious loud pipes on their pipes as a veiled attempt to correct a problem, rather than to perhaps analyze why that car driver didn't see the rider. My bet is those loud pipe types rarely ever consider they may be following too close, not using effective lane placement, not making themselves more visible, not scanning/searching effectively, all manner of methods that I have found are highly effective, even on a quiet bike like a BMW.

  3. #18
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANDYVH View Post
    ... some riders feel justified to put obnoxious loud pipes on their pipes as a veiled attempt to correct a problem, rather than to perhaps analyze why that car driver didn't see the rider.
    I don't like loud pipes either, but to be fair some riders righteously wear dayglow vests or yellow helmets as a "veiled attempt to correct a problem" too. Neither are as bright as a headlight. As Dr. Hurt wrote decades ago "I didn't see them" can apply to polices bikes with lights/strobes and siren working, too. The original premise here is the best solution.
    Kent Christensen
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  4. #19
    WI Airhead r90r100r's Avatar
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    I agree that it is my responsibility to ride safe. I righteously wear ATGATT with a dayglow vest, ride alert and defensively. I have a quiet airhead and a loud one. I like the loud one as it drowns out or matches other bikes running with straight pipes/headers and cars with subwoofers.

    Mike Horne
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  5. #20
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    here's a scary one for ya


  6. #21
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    Very very lucky timing on that one. All and strictly the car driver's fault? Sure, but again, consider what the rider did just before the issue that got the bike that close to the car.

    Here may be a case where, if the rider saw anything odd developing ahead, even two lanes over to the right. Prepare, and quite often the best option is to slow way down and let things develop ahead. Very lucky on this one that the car bike timing was a success. Looked to me though like the brake light was still on the bike as it moved past the car bumper. Lots of luck on that video!

    I'm not saying it's possible to foresee everything and, but I stress its about the attitude of awareness and readiness, rather than "some things you can't do anything about" and taking whatever comes your way. Simply because of our exposure, we HAVE to be so much more aware and capable at all times.
    Last edited by ANDYVH; 04-03-2012 at 08:49 PM.

  7. #22
    Registered User jgr451's Avatar
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    Thanks for bringing this up as the new rididng season starts Andy and others.
    I have been out a few times amongst the rain and wind storms and noticed myself noticing how fast 100 kmh seems.
    Good clue that my situational twitch has atrophied some.
    Sometimes,nothing is a real cool hand.

  8. #23
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    I almost spewed my Manhattan last night watching the late shows. In Wisconsin we have a local law firm, Hupey and Abraham, which feature people/clients claiming how Hupey helped them get a huge settlement on their injury claims. I'm all for good legal representation, especially when I know I have been unjustly wronged. But this goes to my attitude of me doing all I can to ride my best always.

    These ambulance chasers also feature many commerials claiming to support "the rights of bikers" in accident claims. ALL of their commercials show people on Harleys and similar bikes, all leather clad in some form, never shown wearing helmets, often long haired (nothing wrong with that itself), and making claims how Hupey got them million dollar settlements for their crashes with cars.

    What made me nearly spew good whiskey, was the first "rider", a long haired rough looking dude who claimed, "I had to lay the bike down."

    So, the myth continues. The non-riding public sees this guy, who quite honestly looks like the long hair types we expect hanging out in bars all the time. Riding his cruiser/whatever, then crashes it claiming "I hadda lay the bike down." The public figures this is what riding is about. Also, I bet that rider never really looked back at what happened to determine what put him in that place and time, to determine what we could change/improve to make sure it doesn't happen again. No, I'd bet he claims "somethings you can't do anything about." His attitude is its "all the car's fault and I had nothing to do with it." A better attitude is, "what did I do to cause that crash, what could/should I have done different to avoid that crash." Don't just accept it, change it!

    I bet if I had a chance to talk to Mr. Layerdown, if I asked "what did you do wrong in this crash scenario" he would likely say, "absolutely nothing, it was ALL the car driver's fault!" Which I am sure is what he was coached to say by his lawyer in court. Because the lawyer only has to make the jury believe there was nothing done at fault by his client. But I also bet the rider does knows inside what he did before the crash that impacted the results.
    Last edited by ANDYVH; 04-05-2012 at 08:57 PM.

  9. #24
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    As a post-script to the previous discussions on this subject, I am a firm believer that in most cases, the rider has a lot more influence on the crash cause and outcome than most riders are willing to admit. Or to also learn from.

    And I fully appreciate the comments that some make for instances well beyond the control of the rider. True, some things we simply cannot be ready for, adjust for, correct for. There is truth in saying, "when you're time is up,....well,..that's it."

    But my arguement for rider attitude adjustment, that of taking on all the responsibility of our riding FIRST and FOREMOST on ourselves, is about all those instances which are not the "you're time is up" scenario. Aside from those moments, which I think are fairly low percentage of our riding, I feel a very high percentage of all the instances of riding issues ARE well within the control of the rider. And that is where my attitude about my riding is centered, doing whatever I can, every ride, to insure I myself am not the cause of a crash, or even a close call.

  10. #25
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    Personal responsibilty matched with experience is certainly the top line but there are situations where no amount of that matters and you're basically down to luck.

    A couple days ago a rider was killed near where I live when an older women simply veered sharply across the center line at him where they had a combined closing speed north of 100 mph. His friend following had just enough time to hit the ditch and not get killed but the lead rider did not and died instantly. Haven't heard yet whether she had a medical (fat diabetics are as common as leaves around here- we had fainters in our manufacturing plant every day), a blown tire (unlikely), was on a phone (which might have been seen with truly sharp vision and decent lighting), or just took a gander at the scenery (which perhaps could have been seen also). All cops have said so far is no booze or drugs involved.

    A few years ago a women in car was killed here when a 5 lb rock flew off a truck going the other way and came through her windshield. Not likely you'd have time to to react and live through that on a bike either.

    No excuses for getting hit with a retread flying off an 18 wheeler though. They litter the roads around here so it ought to be obvious that following one can be bad for your health. However, trucking enforcement has gone way up in the past year so perhaps the regular citations are causing more attention to basic maintenance.

  11. #26
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    Right, some of those instances you report are in the realm of "this is your moment, and its up". Life is like that, falling off a ladder, slipping in the shower. Life itself will kill us all. Unfortunately, some go much earlier.

    But even those instances mentioned, I feel, fall into the small percentage of riding situations out of control of the rider. But a high percentage of the normal instances we deal with as riders I feel are greatly influenced by the rider.

  12. #27
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    It's up to us as riders to be as proactive as we can.

    I take some type of refresher professional training every couple of years, if for no other reason than to spot the bad habits i have picked up again.

    We can do little to protect ourselves from a larger object in a bad situation .
    Good gear helps, but riding skill will triumph over gear in most cases.

    Stay alert and stay alive

  13. #28
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    It came out of nowhere

    I spent 10 years as an insurance adjuster (hey, I was young and I needed the money) and one universal observation I can make is that in almost all the intersection accidents I handled when I asked where the other vehicle came from the response i got was "It came out of nowhere."

    Nothing comes out of nowhere. There are cross streets, driveways, columns of stopped cars going the other direction that some idiot will jump out of to make a U turn, etc. Even that CNN video - cars don't just slide sideways. Something happened that caused a 2000 pound vehicle to overcome the inertia was that was pushing it forward. That something was probably observable.

    And - if you don't know where the thing that hit you came from then you weren't paying attention.

    You have to be looking for things that CAN hit you. Most people only look for things that are ABOUT to hit them.

  14. #29
    Registered User argent brick's Avatar
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    If you got up this morning knowing that your bike would be hit by a car today would you do anything different? Put on the leathers that have been hanging in your closet for the past 2 years? Don a full face helmet, maybe? I am sure you would ride different.

    Take the attitude that every car driver is out to get you, all of the time, and see what you change.
    Lynn
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    Past: 1978 Yamaha XS 750, 1976 BMW R60/6

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARGENT BRICK View Post
    If you got up this morning knowing that your bike would be hit by a car today would you do anything different? Put on the leathers that have been hanging in your closet for the past 2 years? Don a full face helmet, maybe? I am sure you would ride different.

    Take the attitude that every car driver is out to get you, all of the time, and see what you change.
    really, that is what you'd do?

    see, if I knew that i would be hit by a car today while on my bike... i would leave the bike in the garage and take the car ferchissakes!!!

    but since i don't know that, i ride ATGATT, jsut in case today is the day i get hit.
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

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