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Thread: Tier 1 Gasoline

  1. #31
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    My 1st wife at one time was the tanker dispatcher for a small local oil/gas distributor, back in the late 80's. She said the same thing back as mentioned above, that all the "brands" are really the same gas stock from the refineries and some of the major brands have an additive package the lesser known brands don't have.

    Based on that going back to the 80s and what is said above, I'd certainly believe it. Although, I do try to buy well known brands of gas more often than the lesser known brands.

    Here in Wisconsin and Iowa, the Kwik-Trip brand of convenience stores are huge and in almost any city big enough to have a store. For years their have advertised "top tier garauntee", they insure you'll never have a "fuel related engine problem" using Kwik-Trip gas. Interesting marketing ploy. For one, if you did have a problem, you'd have to prove it was their gas, and you'd have to prove their gas specifically caused the problem. Well, if they're getting the gas from the same stock as everyone else, how could you ever prove it was their specific fuel?

    That said, in over 210,000 miles on both of my BMWs I have never had a fuel related engine problem (knock on wood, or noggin, same thing)

  2. #32
    Old man in the mountains osbornk's Avatar
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    According to a friend of mine who ran an independent gas station and also delivered gas to many other stations in town (branded and not), there is a limit on how much detergent you can add to gas. He and his family ran a station that catered to the elderly and women. They pumped the gas for them and treated them like royalty. They added as all of the detergents that they law would allow because many of the cars weren't driven much. It's not often that you find one of the wealthiest men in town sweeping the parking lot and pumping gas for women and the elderly when he was himself in his mid 70s. He was one of the only wealthy people I have ever known that was liked by everyone and nobody was jealous of.
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  3. #33
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    additives

    BMWRIDER88: Hey Tom: I've not used any additives for several years. Then it only being Stabil . I ride both the Norton and the BMW through the winter, road conditions permitting. I would be open to trying something to help on road trips. Something to dip in the tank that would absorb water or show excessive ethanol. So I keep watching for new developments. I do feel fortunate in having the choice of non-ethanol fuel at about 20 cents a gallon more than regular. I even run it in the Saturn wagon. Millage increase and cost per gallon increase make it about a wash in cost per mile but it seams to run better. No riding today, 3 inches of snow already and still coming. frank coleman

  4. #34
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    What we need is for somebody to follow a tanker after it visits Brand S and see where it goes. Does it go to Brand M or another Brand S? Does it make a stop at Brand XXX before heading back to the depot?

    As mentioned above, you just don't see brand-name tank trucks anymore; all I see are "Joe's Trucking" type of things, and the trucks don't always look well-maintained.

    And we all know not to fill-up while the tanker is off-loading or immediately after. Gets all the gunk stirred up off the storage tank's bottom, and you don't want that in your finely crafted fuel system.

    pete

  5. #35
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Lots of missing the point here.

    Yes, the gas is all the same, and various companies do indeed add their additive package.

    BUT, it's the additive package that makes the gas "top tier," so the fact the base gas is the same isn't really so relevant.

    The exposes, lawsuits, etc., would already have happened if the additives weren't being added as advertised.
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  6. #36
    Superkraut typ181r90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    Lots of missing the point here.

    Yes, the gas is all the same, and various companies do indeed add their additive package.

    BUT, it's the additive package that makes the gas "top tier," so the fact the base gas is the same isn't really so relevant.

    The exposes, lawsuits, etc., would already have happened if the additives weren't being added as advertised.

    Right, but what I'm saying is that this additive package is irrelevant once it goes to tankage. At the blending terminal I work at the product is not fungible, each customer has a different tank and blends according to their specs, however once it's blended and gets a CofA (certificate of analysis) it gets put into tankage with various other brands that may have been blended differently and then trucked out. The CofA is what makes the product fungible and trust me, the additives are there during blend, but once they reach the pump, you're not getting additives specific to any brand.

    When you look at a CofA you realize just how barely the stuff meets spec and how important ethanol is to modern reformulated gasoline as the regular gas pre-blend is 83 octane. Once you add the ethanol, assuming you blend it properly, you bring the octane up to 87 or close to it, the process was the same for 93 octane stuff (89-91 pre blend octane)

    if you're worried about poor ethanol blending, buy 93 grade as that will meet at least 87 octane specs even if there's no ethanol in it. I've seen it added to vehicles pre-blend and can attest to it
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  7. #37
    Ed Kilner #176066
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typ181R90 View Post
    Right, but what I'm saying is that this additive package is irrelevant once it goes to tankage. At the blending terminal I work at the product is not fungible, each customer has a different tank and blends according to their specs, however once it's blended and gets a CofA (certificate of analysis) it gets put into tankage with various other brands that may have been blended differently and then trucked out. The CofA is what makes the product fungible and trust me, the additives are there during blend, but once they reach the pump, you're not getting additives specific to any brand.
    Have a good vocabulary, but had to look fungible up:

    Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution, such as crude oil, wheat, precious metals or currencies. For example, if someone lends another person a $10 bill, it does not matter if they are given back the same $10 bill or a different one, since currency is fungible; if someone lends another person their car, however, they would not expect to be given back a different car, even of the same make and model, as cars are not fungible. - Wikipedia

    So, if I understand it, you said a top=tier customer has specific requirements and their own tank. Gas is blended and put into that tank and tested, then pumped into a general ownership tank with other blends then into a truck ...

    If I were a a top-tier gas seller and found this out, I would be angry, or should be angry at least. It sounds very unethical as a practice and might even be against the contract with the top-tier gas organization.
    Ed
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  8. #38
    Superkraut typ181r90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMW Triumphant View Post
    Have a good vocabulary, but had to look fungible up:

    Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution, such as crude oil, wheat, precious metals or currencies. For example, if someone lends another person a $10 bill, it does not matter if they are given back the same $10 bill or a different one, since currency is fungible; if someone lends another person their car, however, they would not expect to be given back a different car, even of the same make and model, as cars are not fungible. - Wikipedia

    So, if I understand it, you said a top=tier customer has specific requirements and their own tank. Gas is blended and put into that tank and tested, then pumped into a general ownership tank with other blends then into a truck ...

    If I were a a top-tier gas seller and found this out, I would be angry, or should be angry at least. It sounds very unethical as a practice and might even be against the contract with the top-tier gas organization.
    No, it's the industry that wants it this way. When I started at the pipeline there was still one grade that could not be mixed, that was BP "Water White" Premium, that had a special tank and couldn't be commingled with other brands. The guys that had been at the company longer used to say that all of the tanks were customer based and dyed as such, for example Mobil might have blue gas, shell might have red, and so on. The petro companies abandoned this practice and by the time I left the company to go to the terminal the BP Water White was long gone too.

    Working on the pipeline we'd receive product from let's say Shell with various batch numbers intended for different customers right off the bat, 20kbbls might be headed for BP, another 45.0kbbls may go to Wawa. We received product directly from a Conoco Phillips refinery, a Sunoco refinery, and a Hess refinery that were all intended for different customers and placed in fungible tanks. These tanks are only storage mediums, the customers (i.e oil companies) decide how their product is handled and if they want it isolated it can be, but that's not the case anymore

    certified post-blend reformulated "gasoline" is fungible

    I understand what you mean though, the current practice of gas storage would be like taking wine from a variety of producers, mixing it and then just selling it as wine instead of specifically by field or grower which I'd say is unethical, but surprise, oil companies tend not to share the same ethical standards as the rest of us
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  9. #39
    Out There Somewhere bmwrider88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typ181R90 View Post
    Right, but what I'm saying is that this additive package is irrelevant once it goes to tankage. At the blending terminal I work at the product is not fungible, each customer has a different tank and blends according to their specs, however once it's blended and gets a CofA (certificate of analysis) it gets put into tankage with various other brands that may have been blended differently and then trucked out. The CofA is what makes the product fungible and trust me, the additives are there during blend, but once they reach the pump, you're not getting additives specific to any brand.

    When you look at a CofA you realize just how barely the stuff meets spec and how important ethanol is to modern reformulated gasoline as the regular gas pre-blend is 83 octane. Once you add the ethanol, assuming you blend it properly, you bring the octane up to 87 or close to it, the process was the same for 93 octane stuff (89-91 pre blend octane)

    if you're worried about poor ethanol blending, buy 93 grade as that will meet at least 87 octane specs even if there's no ethanol in it. I've seen it added to vehicles pre-blend and can attest to it

    Quote Originally Posted by Typ181R90 View Post
    No, it's the industry that wants it this way. When I started at the pipeline there was still one grade that could not be mixed, that was BP "Water White" Premium, that had a special tank and couldn't be commingled with other brands. The guys that had been at the company longer used to say that all of the tanks were customer based and dyed as such, for example Mobil might have blue gas, shell might have red, and so on. The petro companies abandoned this practice and by the time I left the company to go to the terminal the BP Water White was long gone too.

    Working on the pipeline we'd receive product from let's say Shell with various batch numbers intended for different customers right off the bat, 20kbbls might be headed for BP, another 45.0kbbls may go to Wawa. We received product directly from a Conoco Phillips refinery, a Sunoco refinery, and a Hess refinery that were all intended for different customers and placed in fungible tanks. These tanks are only storage mediums, the customers (i.e oil companies) decide how their product is handled and if they want it isolated it can be, but that's not the case anymore

    certified post-blend reformulated "gasoline" is fungible

    I understand what you mean though, the current practice of gas storage would be like taking wine from a variety of producers, mixing it and then just selling it as wine instead of specifically by field or grower which I'd say is unethical, but surprise, oil companies tend not to share the same ethical standards as the rest of us
    as i'm pretty sure i mentioned earlier- at least once, pure BS. smoke and mirrors. as always it's the customers who get the shaft.

  10. #40
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    top tier gas

    www.toptiergas.com

    This gives a good explanation.

  11. #41
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    Lots of missing the point here.

    Yes, the gas is all the same, and various companies do indeed add their additive package.

    BUT, it's the additive package that makes the gas "top tier," so the fact the base gas is the same isn't really so relevant.

    The exposes, lawsuits, etc., would already have happened if the additives weren't being added as advertised.
    Who wants to spend money on some high dollar testing?...My dad was in the Petro Inspection business ( middlemen for seller/buyer to assure the product loaded was the product delivered) for over 40 years and I used to hang out in the lab...not a cheap process I would imagine for verification of blended gasolines.
    You just trust the big boys to do the right thing....and have a gut feeling they really are not. And the few stations that offer three blends of fuel when there are only two storage tanks. The pump is blending the reg/premium to give you midgrade....never trusted that to be happening.
    Last edited by henzilla; 01-18-2012 at 12:13 AM. Reason: spellin' of course
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  12. #42
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    "Right, but what I'm saying is that this additive package is irrelevant once it goes to tankage. At the blending terminal I work at the product is not fungible, each customer has a different tank and blends according to their specs, however once it's blended and gets a CofA (certificate of analysis) it gets put into tankage with various other brands that may have been blended differently and then trucked out. The CofA is what makes the product fungible and trust me, the additives are there during blend, but once they reach the pump, you're not getting additives specific to any brand"

    So where does Texico Techron and Shell V-Power(nitrogen enriched) come into play?
    Anthony S.
    2012 R1200GS

  13. #43
    Registered User SeabeckS's Avatar
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    It's been about 40 years since I worked in petroleum distribution, and the biz has changed a lot in those years. D'oh! As mentioned by several posters, the base stock is the same, it's the additives that make the difference. Anecdotal information only, but my '98 F-150 has 195,000 miles on it...One new set of plugs and injectors cleaned at 115K. A Ford mechanic friend tells me most F-150's of this vintage need new plugs and injector cleaning around 70 to 90K. He only uses Chevron in his vehicles, I've been doing the same thing for about 25 years. And since the Chevron/Texaco merger I use Texaco too.

    Unlike other areas of the country, around here we do see some "branded" gas tankers, but only Chevron and ARCO. The other gas stations get deliveries by independant tanker trucks. I buy most of my gas from high volume outlets, and so far (knock on wood) I've not had any fuel related problems...

    I use marine grade Sta-Bil in my portable generator, and lawn machine supplies. Add the same stuff when I put my bike into winter storage. I am a bit ticked off with the ethanol content of 'modern' fuels, in a habit of checking tank mileage every time I fuel up any of our rigs, and can always tell when they've blended that damned ethanol in the gas. Seems to be when the price goes up, so does the ethanol content, and that of course reduces mileage, so the ethanol stuff is sort of a double whammy.

    Okay, I'll now exit the soap box...

    Cheers!

    PS. I worked for ARCO many years...and avoid their gasoline products. LOL
    Bill Johnston

  14. #44
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    One "actual" gas for everybody????!!!

    Its SOCIALISM I tells ya, SOCIALISM!!

    What's this world comin to if a feller can't buy Shell gas an expect it to BE Shell Gas!

    Dagnabbit! I'm movin ta Floreeda, pull my pants dang near up to my chest an sit around ta complain bout da Gov'mint.

    Um,...kinda tongue in cheek there. But really, given that gas prices are nearly the same almost at any vendor in your area, it being a commodity these days like water almost, not hard to imagine its all the same product with different names.

  15. #45
    Superkraut typ181r90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    Who wants to spend money on some high dollar testing?...My dad was in the Petro Inspection business ( middlemen for seller/buyer to assure the product loaded was the product delivered) for over 40 years and I used to hang out in the lab...not a cheap process I would imagine for verifiacation of blended gasolines.
    You just trust the big boys to do the right thing....and have a gut feeling they really are not. And the few stations that offer three blends of fuel when there are only two storage tanks. The pump is blending the reg/premium to give you midgrade....never trusted that to be happening.
    When I worked on the pipeline we had a lab and had to test the product when it came in to ensure that the specs matched what was indicated on the CofA, this meant testing for octane (we actually added ethanol to the samples to test post blending), sulfur, benzene, VOC, RVP, oxygenates, aromatics, and olefins, you also had to match the API gravity (density) to the tank sample that was on the CofA so that you knew the product you were receiving came from the tank that was sampled on the other end.

    At the terminal I currently work at they pay labs and samplers so unfortunately I don't have access to that equipment anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloride View Post
    So where does Texico Techron and Shell V-Power(nitrogen enriched) come into play?
    or BP invigorate? Motiva (http://www.motivaenterprises.com/) is essentially Royal Dutch Shell in my area of the country and we dealt with them on the pipeline side. Again, their "formulated" gas went into the same tankage with the rest and was also bought by other customers such as Hess and BP for distribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeabeckS View Post
    Unlike other areas of the country, around here we do see some "branded" gas tankers, but only Chevron and ARCO. The other gas stations get deliveries by independant tanker trucks. I buy most of my gas from high volume outlets, and so far (knock on wood) I've not had any fuel related problems...
    Next to the terminal I currently work at is a BP terminal that has BP branded trucks. I know we have done custody transfers to this terminal, meaning the product they are buying to load to the trucks is another company's product. As mentioned earlier there are also Conoco Phillips and Hess refineries in my immediate area and you find independent trucking companies loading at their truck racks and making deliveries to a variety of gas stations. There aren't any Conoco stations in NJ btw.
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