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Thread: 2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensors

  1. #76
    Registered User wjg4oh's Avatar
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    Am I understanding this correctly -- that increasing the fuel pressure takes the place of both the Booster Plug and Wideband O2 sensor/adjustment? Very interesting thread, Roger.
    Wally Gingerich
    Shaker Heights, OH

  2. #77
    Registered User mneblett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjg4oh View Post
    Am I understanding this correctly -- that increasing the fuel pressure takes the place of both the Booster Plug and Wideband O2 sensor/adjustment? Very interesting thread, Roger.
    I've asked on Roger's BMWST thread a similar question -- I'm guessing the fuel pressure regulator still needs the LC-1/wideband O2 sensor to fool the engine computer into believing the 13.8:1 AR ratio is the 14.7:1 the computer is looking for.
    Mark Neblett
    Fairfax, VA
    #32806

  3. #78
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjg4oh View Post
    Am I understanding this correctly -- that increasing the fuel pressure takes the place of both the Booster Plug and Wideband O2 sensor/adjustment? Very interesting thread, Roger.
    The fuel pressure boost takes the place of a BoosterPlug in my implementation but the LC-1 is still needed too. You can boost the pressure and run open loop but you won't know what your mixture is. In a couple days I'll show a graph of why that is so.

    Here's a longer explanation.

    Before answering, and I'm sure you know this, I can only answer this question in the context of a stock motorcycle--stock intake, stock exhaust, stock Coding Plug, no other fuel injection changes. A bike should be well tuned, have good coils, good compression, good fuel hoses and pump and no defects.

    With that proviso:

    1) Closed Loop operation brings many benefits that have been discussed throughout the thread. The Motronic fuel tables are designed for an AFR of 14.7:1 but the Motronic algorithms are designed to converge around ANY transition point of the O2 sensor. The stock sensor transitions from 200 mV to 800 mV at an air-fuel ratio of 14.7:1. The LC-1 can be programmed to make that transition at ANY air-fuel ratio. Therefore to keep Closed Loop but move to another AFR you need something like the LC-1. A point I will make is that this is in no way "spoofing" the Motronic--it giving it a different switching point and working within it's design parameters.

    A side benefit to the LC-1 is that you can always read your motorcycle's AFR. I have found this to be a very helpful diagnostic tool.

    2. Since the stock fuel map is set for 14.7:1 at cruise, whether you shift the map using a fuel pressure regulator or an IAT shifting device is mostly a matter of choice. The closer your fuel table is to the O2 switch point, the smoother your engine runs while you wait for the Motronic to create its Adaptation Values.

    Running the leaner E10 fuel, the Motronic has to adapt 10% to get from 14.7 (where it is starting) to 13.8. A BoosterPlug shifts things 6%, a fuel pressure regulator can shift things 10%.

    Another example though would go like this, you're running gasoline with no Ethanol and moving from 14.7 to 14.1 (4% richer, it runs nicely there too). For this, you need only a 4% move.

    3. Lastly, there is the Open Loop option. You lose the regulating benefits of Closed Loop. If you run gasoline, without ethanol, a BoosterPlug will get you about 6% richer, good enough for some.

    If you run fuel with ethanol and add a BoosterPlug you only end up 2% richer than 14.7. I doubt you would notice the difference.

    So running E10 and looking for a richer mixture Open Loop, I would go the fuel pressure route.

    The problem with all the Open Loop options is that you have no way for sure to know what AFR you've ended up at. And like running a Techlusion, you have to use the "butt dyno". method.

    My favorite for E10 Land:
    LC-1 and Fuel Pressure boost to 52 psi

    My favorite for Gasoline Land
    LC-1 and a BoosterPlug because the BP is easier to install.

    A compromise for E10 Land
    LC-1 and BoosterPlug

    This is probably a longer answer than you hoped for but there are several things to consider
    .

    RB

  4. #79
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    The computer and O2 sensor will sense and analyze the rich condition produced by the increased fuel pressure and lean the mixture. This will likely occur over tens of miles as the computer learns the new parameters of the engine. I considered increasing the size of my injectors to compliment the new header I'm going to mount. But decided against it, since the computer would adjust the pulse of the new injectors until it brought the A:F mixture back in line with the factory settings.

    Currently running a Booster Plug and have for about 2 years, with good results.

  5. #80
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHGilbert View Post
    The computer and O2 sensor will sense and analyze the rich condition produced by the increased fuel pressure and lean the mixture. This will likely occur over tens of miles as the computer learns the new parameters of the engine. I considered increasing the size of my injectors to compliment the new header I'm going to mount. But decided against it, since the computer would adjust the pulse of the new injectors until it brought the A:F mixture back in line with the factory settings.

    Currently running a Booster Plug and have for about 2 years, with good results.
    It won't revert. Let me explain.

    By using a Wideband O2 sensor and programing it to 13.8:1 is what keeps the motronic from leaning the mixture back to 14.7:1. It is the combination of Lc-1 and fuel pressure that keeps it Closed Loop and richer.

    If you look at the earlier charts you can see the the combo keeps conditions set as programmed indefinitely.

  6. #81
    Registered User mneblett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHGilbert View Post
    The computer and O2 sensor will sense and analyze the rich condition produced by the increased fuel pressure and lean the mixture.
    Oops -- RB beat me to it!

    From what Roger has been posting, that is not the case if you have the LC-1/wideband O2 sensor installed as well -- the engine computer will adapt around the target AFR set by the LC-1, not around its "built-in" 14.7 target.
    Mark Neblett
    Fairfax, VA
    #32806

  7. #82
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
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    Very interesting findings on the higher fuel pressure. Not quite sure how you bypassed the existing pressure regulator from your photos though.

    I was following a thread over on ADVRider last year about swapping pressure regulators. A few riders swapped out their 11XX fuel pressure regulators (43 PSI) for a K bike regulator (50 PSI) with positive results. Doing this eliminated surging on a few bikes and increased acceleration performance.

    The biggest roadblock was the amount of stuff you have to remove to get at the pressure regulator and swap it out. You have to lift the tail to get at it. A fellow named StepToe stated it was possible to do it without removing the whole back end of the bike but looking at my RT I can't imagine getting in there any other way.

    I think I will try out the regulator idea when it's time for a spline lube.
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  8. #83
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Put hoses with QDs on the input and output of the regulator and then plugged it in series with the fuel return line.

    The 3.5 would be good but lifting the tail was too big a project.

  9. #84
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Someone asked me the other day to take a test ride with fuel pressure set to 52 psi, Motronic reset and in Open Loop mode (Wideband O2 sensor unplugged). I got out yesterday and made the run.

    My report is simple, the bike runs great--smooth, good power, very responsive to throttle from 2000 RPM or so on up, even in 4th gear. A lot like the Closed Loop test rides at 52 psi and Wideband O2 set to 13.8:1. It's not really a surprise to me that it ran well in Open Loop. But I want to point out one thing: because I had the Wideband O2 installed, I knew that my setting of the fuel pressure was producing the enrichment I was looking for. Without the Wideband O2, you can crank up the fuel pressure, but you can't say for sure where you are with the enrichment.

    If you go back earlier in this thread to here: Open vs Closed Loop, notice how much flatter the Closed Loop curve looks and how much tighter the histogram distribution of AFRs is in the smaller plots.

    The same thing happened yesterday when I rode at 52 psi, reset Motronic, Open Loop. The range of AFRs, rather than being tightly centered on 13.8:1 where mostly around 14.3:1 and 13.3:1 (the two horizontal dashed lines in the plot below). My educated guess is that this is how the Motronic tries keep the Catalytic converter running even if the O2 sensor is dead. Normally in Closed Loop, with a stock sensor, the Motronic runs fueling a few percent above and below 14.7:1. (Snooze alert: The reason for going to the lean side of 14.7 is to allow Oxygen to recharge the Cerium in the three way converter.) So now, Open Loop the Motronic makes big moves in the fueling, still hoping to create a lean-of-14.7/rich-of-14.7 scenario. This way too rich/way to lean is a sort of limp-home-mode. (It's noteworthy that this will be how many PowerCommander and Techlusion curves would look if anyone plotted them.) I think it is very likely that this causes more fuel consumption than the Closed Loop case.

    So here is the Open Loop 52 psi plot with all its "wildness".




    My favorite configuration remains:
    LC-1 set to 13.8:1 with Fuel Pressure boosted to 52 psi (for E10 fuel).

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger 04 RT View Post
    It won't revert. Let me explain.

    By using a Wideband O2 sensor and programing it to 13.8:1 is what keeps the motronic from leaning the mixture back to 14.7:1. It is the combination of Lc-1 and fuel pressure that keeps it Closed Loop and richer.

    If you look at the earlier charts you can see the the combo keeps conditions set as programmed indefinitely.
    That is correct, however the LC-1 doesn't stop the Motronic from functioning, it merely monitors and modifies the input signal from the the new wideband sensor and sends it on to the Motronic. The Motronic still monitors the throttle position sensor (TPS), crank position sensor (CPS) and O2 sensor, so that it can inject an appropriate interval of gas into the manifold at two appropriate times.

    Motronic is blind to fuel pressure. The LC-1 only modifies the O2 sensor signal to your programmed setting, fooling the Motronic to make the mixture richer or leaner...if I remember correctly you've settled on 13.8.

    Now you've introduced the variable of fuel pressure(FP), and evidently StepToe has done it as well. In order to inject more fuel into the engine the stock Motronic opens the injector, which is just a solenoid actuated valve, for a longer interval of time.

    By increasing the pressure, you are now injecting a larger amount of fuel into the manifold, which will be interpreted by the wideband sensor, adjusted and sent on to the Motronic. The Motronic will then take this altered signal and increase or decrease the interval of injection to achieve the parameters programmed by BMW.

    Your original LC-1 accomplished its goal of allowing you to richen the mixture to 13.8. The increase in FP is probably unnecessary to improve the fuel delivery system on your bike. But this is how we learn and push envelopes.

    The fact that StepToe achieved better drivability could indicate that the programming of the Motronic is smarter than I thought it was. It may calculate engine load by using the TPS, CPS (and RPM), and O2 sensor to determine the interval of the injection necessary at a FP of 44 psi.

    If this is true, StepToe may have hit on an elegant solution to the lean burn condition exacerbated by 10% ethanol fuel and lead to another possible solution. Increasing the injector volume delivery by 10% should achieve the same outcome and is much easier than replacing the FP regulator.

    Anyone have a Bosch part number for the injectors?

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    By the way, StepToe's solution of using the K-bike FP regulator won't work as well in the US since our lean-burn condition is partially programmed and now partially due to 10% ethanol.

    StepToe is from Britain, if I remember correctly, and doesn't have 10% ethanol in the fuel.

  12. #87
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHGilbert View Post
    ...

    Anyone have a Bosch part number for the injectors?
    Rather than try and square your take on this to the system I've implemented. I'll just make a couple points. Steptoe over on advrider.com was boosting pressure without shifting Lambda. This will get Adapted out over the long term. He was looking to solve a different problem than me I guess.

    Your explanation is missing a key point in the Motronic operation, Adaptation Values, which I planned to write up. I will do so in the next post.

    As part of rebuilding my fuel system I had the injectors out for cleaning. They are Bosch EV6 injectors, Injector Part #: 0280 155 788, 16 ohm saturating-type.

    RB

  13. #88
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    A couple posts ago I said I would explain the connection between Closed Loop, Adaptation Values and Fuel Pressure increase.

    There is no easy way to think of or explain the full operation of the Motronic. That is especially true when you get into one of the Motronic MA 2.4 strongest abilities: Value Adaptation.

    Assuming you maintain Closed Loop operation by keeping a valid O2 sensor in the system, there are many examples in this thread which show the following:

    1.) If you leave the stock O2 sensor (programmed by physics to an AFR of Lambda = 1 which is 14.7:1 for gasoline) through the process of Adaptation the Motronic will, over time, create Adaptation Values which eliminate the affect of fuel pressure changes, input air temperature changes, etc. In other words it reverts to the AFR dictated by the O2 sensor--including during Open Loop operation by applying the learned adaptation values as corrections.

    2.) If you put in an O2 sensor that shifts Lambda (in my case programmably to Lambda = 0.94 which is 13.8:1 for gasoline) you don't require a change to air temperature or fuel pressure. But a pressure increase can still have value as you will see.

    The reason for the behaviors in 1.) and 2.) are because the Motronic can use its O2 sensor to learn in Closed Loop corrections to the Open Loop Fuel Map. For example, the Fuel Map value for 3500 RPM and 6 degrees on the TPS might be 3.5 milliseconds. In Closed Loop, the Motronic and O2 sensor might "see" that it actually takes 3.675 milliseconds. If that actual value is the case over the long term, the motronic might start with a 1% Adaptation Value, that creeps its way to a full 5% over time. This is a simple picture of how Adaptation Values get learned. (When you pull Fuse 5 or a battery lead they get erased.)

    In case 2.) the Motronic must create Adaptation Values like the ones below (I can't find the R1150 Bosch/BMW's adaptation table but the table illustrates the point). Because the stock Fuel Map values in the Motronic equate to lambda = 1 for gasoline but Lambda = 1.04 for E10 fuel and because I've programmed lambda to 0.94, the Adaption Values inside my Motronic will be about +10%. These values will be in something like the 4 X 4 matrix at the top of the table below.

    A few things about Adaptation values: they bridge the gap between the stock Fuel Map and reality as defined by the O2 sensor; it is hard to drive in Closed Loop in some of the areas of the adaptation map, e.g. high manifold pressure or high RPM; and these values can take hours of driving to build up.

    So the reason to boost the fuel pressure or move the IAT sensor colder, is to bring the stock Fuel Map closer to the final AFR so that the Adaptation Values can be small. One last note, the Fuel Map might be a 16 X 16 table where the Adaptation Map might only be 4 X 4, much coarser. So all things considered there is real value to getting the Fuel Map shifted close to the final values.

    An adjustable fuel pressure regulator does a great job of invisibly aligning the Fuel Map and a Wideband O2 sensor, and does a great job of taking care of the extra fuel needed for E10.


  14. #89
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Here is another Adaptation strategy.


    This is interesting because it shows 3 types of Adaptations: a short term fuel trim (Lambdaintegrator) and two long term fuel trims. One long term fuel trim is additive for short injector pulses the other is multiplicative for longer fuel pulses. This is from an early 2000s BMW car, I believe.

    I've posted this and the prior example not to say I've figured out which strategy BMW used on these Motronic based bikes but to show different ways that the data I've measured can be accomplished.

  15. #90
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    I've now logged about 500 miles on my add-on fuel pressure regulator (FPR) and LC-1 combo--no BoosterPlug or other changes to my stock R1150RT.

    The LC-1 and FPR are tuned for a gasoline AFR of 13.8:1 using E10 fuel. The mileage includes almost 100 miles between 70 and 85 mph. Lambda on the LC-1 is now set to 0.94. And the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) is set to 52 PSI, correcting Open Loop for both the change in Lambda and the leanness of E10 fuel. As setup now, I would say that the Boxer engine is as responsive, smooth and powerful (for the bike's weight) as any engine I've owned. It's interesting to duck down below the windscreen between 60 and 80 mph in 6th gear, listening to the engine it's very comfortable at these speeds, powers and RPMs (3000-4000).

    On the last series of Open Loop tests that I made, I attempted to set things up in the garage while on a conference call. Cradling the phone on my shoulder, taking the bike off the center stand and dodging some stuff piled on the floor in front of the bike led to a slow motion tip-over and a couple of deep scratches on the windscreen as it hit an adjacent bicycle. I've bought a Micro-Mesh kit and some coarser (320 & 600) sandpaper. That seems to be going pretty well. Scratches are gone, polishing it up.

    When I have time, I'll take a look at all the speeds and RPMs where the Motronic is Closed Loop, at least as much as I can cover.

    RB
    Last edited by Roger 04 RT; 09-13-2012 at 02:51 PM.

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