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Thread: 2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensors

  1. #31
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Hello Roger,
    WOW, you sound like you're as bored as I am.
    Jammess

  2. #32
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red100RT View Post
    Hello Roger,
    WOW, you sound like you're as bored as I am.
    Hey Red100RT,

    Yeah bored and intrigued at the same time ... a bit more ...

    It turns out that the sensor does float on a signal 140 mV above ground. Any O2 sims like mine have to add this to the lc-1 or other o2 computer. Although I'm still fine tuning, the bike is running strongly at 14.2:1 (13.7 to 14.7) Closed Loop. Will continue to report the clean-up work. The challenge is getting two sensitive computers, motronic and lc-1 to each love the new environment and for the motronic to be blind to it. I expect to refine:

    --Wiring length
    --Component positions
    --Motronic heater emulation
    --Electrical noise
    --Simulated o2 rise time.

    In spite of these planned improvements the bike continues to be smooth and powerful through all gears over a much wider RPM range.
    Roger

  3. #33
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Hi Roger,
    If I understand you correctly the open loop state results in a fuel air mixture ratio of 14.2 to 1 from a closed loop ratio of 14.7 to 1, correct?
    Jammess

  4. #34
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red100RT View Post
    Hi Roger,
    If I understand you correctly the open loop state results in a fuel air mixture ratio of 14.2 to 1 from a closed loop ratio of 14.7 to 1, correct?
    My project is focused on Closed Loop operation. The normal target in closed loop operation is 14.7:1 with the mixture toggling once a second (approx.) from about 14.2 to 15.1 or so.

    What I have done is move to a Closed Loop target of 14.2:1, varying from about 13.7:1 to 14.7:1 at the same once per second rate (approx.).

    Even that small shift (about 3% richer) in Closed Loop range has made a significant difference in performance. It may also be that my old O2 sensor had a characteristic that made it a few percent leaner than normal, I don't know yet. Still, just a bit richer and it's a lot better. Although I never noticed a bad surge, my bike just felt "held back" once it warmed up. It's possible that other 1100 and 1150s with more pronounced surginess would get more benefit.

    For Open Loop, in order to deal with the fact that E10 gasoline is 4% leaner than pure gasoline, I have installed a BoosterPlug, which delivers a richer mixture by about 6%, a good offset to the E10. The BoosterPlug does not affect the Closed Loop operation which is governed by the O2 sensor.
    Last edited by Roger 04 RT; 12-28-2011 at 08:24 PM.

  5. #35
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    Roger,

    I suspect that, over time, your Booster Plug may become redundant. As you put more and more time on your bike with a closed loop target of 14.2 to 1, the ECU will accumulate adaptation values that it then applies to open loop operation (often referred to as Long Term Fuel trim).
    Karl
    2007 R1200ST

  6. #36
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Roger, repeat after me: T-E-C-H-L-U-S-I-O-N

    Not trying to be a smart a__ but with your LM1 you could probably install a techlusion and adjust the mixture to the ratio you seek while keeping all else stock as this device works with the stock O2 sensor in the circuit. Would be interesting to see what results you get.
    Jammess

  7. #37
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red100RT View Post
    Roger, repeat after me: T-E-C-H-L-U-S-I-O-N

    Not trying to be a smart a__ but with your LM1 you could probably install a techlusion and adjust the mixture to the ratio you seek while keeping all else stock as this device works with the stock O2 sensor in the circuit. Would be interesting to see what results you get.
    Thanks for the suggestion but did look it over pretty carefully. Unless the Gen 4 device is now available for the R1150, the earlier products don't affect Closed Loop operation.

    When I go to their web site and On-Line store, this is the model they offer: FI-1031. It can affect Open Loop but not Closed Loop. During cruise and acceleration, the R1150 is often in Closed Loop mode, hence its issues.

    Also, I wanted the least invasive solution to Closed Loop richening. The Techlusion Gen 4 (if available) required intercepting the injector signals. The PowerCommander III has a Wideband O2 but again intercepts the TPS and Injector Signals.

    By only modifying the O2 Sensor path, I'm letting the Motronic do what it was designed to do, just shifting the O2 switching point down a little.

    Happy Holidays

  8. #38
    Registered User 11319's Avatar
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    2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensors

    This is a great thread.
    "We're surrounded, that simplifies our problem."-Chesty Puller

  9. #39
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Open Loop AFR Results

    Today I got a chance to pull the fairings, lift the tank and disconnect the O2 Sensor input to the Motronic. My goal was to see what the Open Loop Air Fuel Ratios (AFR) for the Motronic 2.4 looked like.

    As a reminder, I have a Wideband LC-1 installed in place of the normal Narrowband O2 sensor. Usually it is set to 14.2:1, so when the motorcycle goes closed loop, I can't tell what the Motronic would do on its own, with the O2 Sensor disconnected.

    I also pulled the Pink CAT Code Plug and looked at those results as well.

    Procedure:
    1) Disconnect Motronic O2 Sensor
    2) Disconnect BoosterPlug
    3) Reset Motronic by pulling Fuse 5, etc.

    Results:
    From Cold Engine (40F) to Warm Engine (140F-ish): AFR Range 13:1 to 14.7:1
    Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 14.5:1 to 15.2:1

    Comments: There was no sign of a rich Limp Home Mode. Without O2 Sensor connected, mixtures got leaner than 14.7:1.

    Next Test:
    1)Pulled Pink CAT Code Plug
    2)No BoosterPlug
    3)O2 Sensor Disconnected
    4)Motronic Reset

    Results:
    Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 14.7:1 to 15.5:1.

    Comments: Pulling the Pink CAT Code plug definitely created leaner mixtures than with it in, by an amount I would guess was about 0.4 AFR leaner. I would not ride without Pink CAT Code plug installed.

    Summary:
    It looks to me like the stock fuel tables in the cruise range for the Motronic MA 2.4 are centered around 14.7:1 and get leaner somewhere between 2,500 and 4,000 RPM depending on TPS. I often saw AFR readings in the low 15s.

    It may be that without the O2 sensor installed, and with the E10 Premium fuel I'm running, the Motronic stock fuel tables result in leaner than 14.7:1.

    As you can guess, I will be reconnecting the LC-1, reprogramming my Closed Loop O2 to 14:2:1 and reconnecting the BoosterPlug for Open Loop enrichment.

    PS: I broke a tab on one of the fairings in my rush to open the bike. Any suggestions for how to glue to reattach a piece to the fairing (in the cylinder head area)?

  10. #40
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Open Loop AFRs with Boosterplug

    Ran the same Open Loop tests with the BoosterPlug installed, as expected, about a 6% richer mixture across the board.

    Procedure:
    1) Disconnect Motronic O2 Sensor
    2) Connect BoosterPlug
    3) Reset Motronic by pulling Fuse 5, etc.

    Results:
    Warm Engine Cruise (3rd, 4th, 5th gears; 3000 to 5000 RPM): AFR Range 13.5:1 to 14.5:1

    Open Loop, with the BoosterPlug installed, the motorcycle seemed to run strong in all gears and modes (accel, cruise, decel), much better behaved than with stock Narrowband O2.

  11. #41
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are zoning in where you want to be. When you say open loop you mean the CCP is out?
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  12. #42
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Wanderer View Post
    Sounds like you are zoning in where you want to be. When you say open loop you mean the CCP is out?
    Yes, I believe that I'm in the zone now for 14.2:1 fueling, I have even dialed it down to 13.8:1 (about what a PowerCommander III targets) and it still works well.

    By Open Loop, I mean that the Motronic doesn't see a O2 sensor so does not try to ramp the fuel +/- around the O2 Sensor switch point. When Open Loop, the Motronic looks at RPM and TPS and picks a value from a fueling table in its memory. Then it applies corrections for battery voltage, air temperature, engine temperature, air pressure, etc. and squirts fuel.

    In Closed Loop it does all those things but also adjusts the fueling up/down around the O2 switching point which in stock condition is 14.7:1 or in O2 sensor voltage terms about 450mV.

    I ran Open Loop in three conditions in the data in the earlier posts:

    Reset with Pink CCP but no BoosterPlug: AFRs in the 14.5:1 to 15.2:1 range
    Reset with no BoosterPlug and no Pink CCP: AFRs in the 14.7:1 to 15.5:1 range
    Reset with Pink CCP and BoosterPlug: AFRs in the 13.5:1 to 14.5:1 range

    Note: Best Power Mixture is considered to be between 13.2 and 13.8:1

    By Closing the Loop with the LC-1 my cruise is pretty steady at 14.2:1 and the bike runs really great. Just a few percent richer than the stock sensor made a world of difference.

  13. #43
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    I've started to log real-time LC-1 data and took a ride this morning after the motorcycle warmed up. The plot below gives an idea of just how well the LC-1 can hold the 14.2 target I've programmed it to. This tight band is because the LC-1 approach keeps the Motronic fully "in the loop".

    It's also interesting to see spread on a normal ride--most of the points between 12.9 and 15.1. If the center of the range were 14.7:1 (stock), I would expect the engine would get as lean as almost 16:1--perhaps lean enough for lean-surge.

    I'll add some more charts over the next couple days when I get better at using that capability.


  14. #44
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    LC-1 Realtime AFR Data

    It has only recently dawned on me that in addition to logging samples with the GS-911, the LC-1 wideband sensor is able to log high-speed real-time AFR data. Here is a plot from a ride I took today, Closed Loop AFR still set at 14.2:1.

    Some things I would note:

    --During the first 2:40 the Motronic is Open Loop and the mixture is richer than 14.2, and climbing. At that point, it goes Closed Loop and the line holds 14.2 for most of the time.

    --The Motronic is quickly richening the mixture during acceleration. The dips in the plot correspond to me turning the throttle. The AFR can, during "normal" acceleration (part throttle), get as rich as 12:1

    --The LC-1 is very effective at returning quickly to 14.2 as soon as any richer-mixture acceleration ends.

    --On the right hand side of the chart, you can see the effect of fuel-cutoff, AFR goes to 22 (full scale). It really does shut of the fuel! However, it gets back to the 14.2 range pretty quickly once it exits fuel-cutoff mode.


  15. #45
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Motronic Lambda Heater

    I've got some cleaned up pictures of the LC-1 Install which I will post soon. Before finalizing the install, I needed to know whether the Motronic MA 2.4 would throw an error code and/or disable Closed Loop operation if it didn't see an O2 Sensor heater.

    In many ECUs, the monitor O2 sensor heater current to determine if the sensor is present and if it is working. Since there is no documenation, the only thing to do was cut the O2 heater wires and see what happened. I rode for an hour with the heater disconnected.

    The bottom line is, that the Motronic MA 2.4 does not produce any error codes if the heater is missing, and still runs its Closed Loop program.

    This was good news for the final installation since it meant that I didn't need to find a place to mount a 10 ohm resistor dumping nearly 20 watts of heat.

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