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Thread: 2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensors

  1. #136
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Hi Wally,
    I've noticed that on my bike, in neutral, Closed Loop stops just above 2000 RPM. Perhaps lighter loads exit CL earlier than I've seen.

    This could be a difference between Closed and Open Loop areas for the RT and GS models. I can tell you for sure that my RT remains in Closed Loop up to something like 6000 RPM and at speeds over a hundred miles per hour. I've got lots of plots and data showing the Closed Loop status (GS-911) and AFR (from the LC-1).

    Can you connect a PC and get a running log of the data. (I strap my PC to the rear seat). You run with the serial cable connected and a program you got with the LC-1 called Logworks. That will tell us a lot.

    If you can, try running the same test with the Pink Coding plug instaleled (30-87-87a) we could figure out whether it is coding plug related, or whether the difference is my MA 2.4; or whether it's something else.

  2. #137
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjg4oh View Post
    Roger and others...

    I noticed something interesting on my LC-1 equipped 2001 R1150GS. I have Lambda set at .94 (13.8:1 AFR). As long as I ride below 4000 rpms the engine hovers right around 13.8 on level going and modest uphills. However, above 4000 rpm the AFR goes up to 14.4 on level going while maintaining steady speed. If I increase throttle enough for the engine to pull a little, the AFR drops back to 13.8.

    I've ridden several hundred miles, so I wouldn't think the Motronic is still learning. And even if it was, I would expect steady speed on level going to be running in closed loop, which should be 13.8. I've observed the above pattern in gears 1, 2 & 3. I'll need to get on a bigger highway to test it out in the upper gears.

    Could it be that the Motronic is designed to lean out the mixture when it thinks the bike is cruising (steady throttle, above 4000 rpms)? I have no way of knowing for certain when the bike is in closed vs. open loop, since the only feedback I'm getting is the AFR gauge.

    Hi Wally, I went out and did some quick datalogging in first, second and third gear. The Motronic does go Open Loop at small TPS angles and RPMs above about 4K--but that's what your numbers 14.4 were saying.

    If there is a slight acceleration my mixture at 4500 RPMs got richer than the closed loop target (acceleration enrichment) but with even the slightest deceleration in 3rd gear the mixture got slightly leaner (deceleration enleanment).

    This provides a possible model for 4000-rpm-and-above, small-TPS-angle, driveability problems. The Motronic is a) Open Loop; b) in low gears with lots of deceleration/acceleration torque, and c) in some cases not too far from triggering the abruptness of Overrun Fuel Cutoff.

    The interesting thing is that with my 13.8:1 Closed Loop AFRs I can see these effects in the data log but I don't experience the effect as a driveability problem. If I cut the mixture to stock 14.7:1 I can start to feel the effect as well as see it in the log.

    BTW, since it was connected (testing proto 2 now) I made these runs using the prototype narrowband-shifting device I mentioned a few posts back. So it seems to be doing just as effective a job as the LC-1 (which I still prefer for datalogging).

  3. #138
    Registered User wjg4oh's Avatar
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    Roger, I was away for a few days but now back home, and as soon as the weather clears I'll get out for more runs and will log data using LogWorks3.

    By "small-TPS-angle" do you mean small differences up or down from current speed? My experience was at steady throttle above 4000 rpm on level going the AFR would drop to 14.4, and I experienced just what you describe, as if the Motronic cut off the the fuel completely but then decided not to, all in a split second. Not a big "surge", but detectable. Below 4000 rpm when the AFR is at 13.8 at steady throttle I didn't notice the problem.

    I'm relieved to know you observed the same pattern on your RT - it assures me I wasn't just imagining this! Any guesses about why the Motronic is programmed this way?
    Wally Gingerich
    Shaker Heights, OH

  4. #139
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjg4oh View Post
    Roger, I was away for a few days but now back home, and as soon as the weather clears I'll get out for more runs and will log data using LogWorks3.

    By "small-TPS-angle" do you mean small differences up or down from current speed? My experience was at steady throttle above 4000 rpm on level going the AFR would drop to 14.4, and I experienced just what you describe, as if the Motronic cut off the the fuel completely but then decided not to, all in a split second. Not a big "surge", but detectable. Below 4000 rpm when the AFR is at 13.8 at steady throttle I didn't notice the problem.

    I'm relieved to know you observed the same pattern on your RT - it assures me I wasn't just imagining this! Any guesses about why the Motronic is programmed this way?
    By small TPS angles, I mean in absolute terms. I went back and looked, and in third gear at about 4500 RPMs the throttle is only open about 7.5 degrees, Overrun Cuttoff is only 5 degrees of throttle rotation below that. The other interesting note is that the injector duration is about equal to that at idle, only 2 mS, half of which is dead time.

    I also looked through other data for the 3rd gear, 4500 RPM period. It was all open loop. And the injectors pulses started dropping in duration when I dropped the throttle from 8.32 degrees to 7.68 as reported by the motronic leading to injection times dropping from 2.3 mS to 2.18 then to 1.73 mS and the AFR going from slightly rich to slightly lean.

  5. #140
    Registered User wjg4oh's Avatar
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    I had a chance to get out yesterday afternoon for a brief ride on the Interstate where I could get the bike into the upper gears. In 4th, 5th and 6th above 4000 rpm the AFR never got above 13.8, unlike the lower gears.

    Does anyone have an idea why the Motronic apparently goes open loop (AFR 14.4) above 4000 rpm in the lower gears, but not in the upper gears? AFR stays right around 13.8 at steady speed on level going all of the time except above 4000 rpm in 1st, 2nd & 3rd!

    I did observe a couple of times at higher rpm in the lower gears yesterday when the AFR dropped down to 13.8, but didn't get enough riding in to be able to replicate the conditions.
    Wally Gingerich
    Shaker Heights, OH

  6. #141
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    At 4000 rpm, small throttle angles, the 1150 appears to be open loop. In the higher gears because you're going faster, the engine has to produce more power and your throttle is more open. At higher throttle angles the Motronic applies closed loop control.

    I've spoken to the guys at PC and asked them about the chart below which shows where they believe the Motronic is closed and open loop. According to them, it is their understanding of it but they can't say for certain that it is accurate. The dark area is closed loop and the white area is open loop.

    Why BMW has designated the various areas open and closed is harder to work out but it is either because closed loop is unreliable at those RPMs and throttle angles, or because they always want either leaner or richer operating conditions that closed loop would allow.

    Back when I began this project it was partly because when shifting up in the low gears, I experienced slight roughness when the engine was warmed up, right at the "top" of the shift. It now appears that this is an area of leaner open loop operation. By reducing lambda with the Wideband we're also reducing lambda in these open loop areas.


  7. #142
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've been experimenting with some options for shifting lambda. A fully programmable, accurate solution, with the ability to datalog, is a Wideband O2 Sensor with a Wideband Controller like the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. (As a note, there are other manufacturers of this kind of product: Zeitronix, PLX, & wbO2. Also, I'm still working on a device that can pull a Narrowband O2 Sensor several percent to the rich side (this is looking pretty good).

    The other day, I had someone build me a Wideband O2 Sensor (Bosch LSU 4.2), with a fixed-AFR shift Wideband Controller built into the cable (photo below, small controller not shown). At the moment it's not quite compatible with the Motronic MA 2.4 and it ends up running 9% richer than stock when it is set to 6% richer--still looking into it.

    What was interesting was at 13.4:1-ish my bike's hot idle had increased to 1400 RPM from about 1200. I also noticed on a local trip to the Post Office I was in a higher gear (6th) than usual (5th). Like everyone, I shift by feel and was quite surprised that I was going 50 MPH at 2500 RPM.

    While it's probably too rich (?), it seems the 1150RT likes its fuel.

    RB


  8. #143
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    So back to the Narrowband O2 Shifter, here's a progress report.

    Proto 2 of the Narrowband-shifter seems pretty well set for the R1150 series. I have found an interim connector supplier at a too-high-price but it does allow me to have some preproduction units built. (Proto 2 Photo below, it needs to be prettied up with black cable, etc. Also, there is no exposed chip on the production unit).

    For installation: the procedure on an R1150 would be to pull the tank, connect the connectors in-line with the stock O2 sensor, run the grey cable along the right side of the frame, place the O2 circuit on the air filter cover, and attach a ground to the battery.

    The specs look about like this:
    (S1 means setting 1)

    S1 14.7:1 (stock)
    S6 14.35 +/-0.15 AFR (2% richer)
    S7 14.15 +/-0.15 AFR (4%)
    S8 13.8 +/-0.2 AFR (6%)

    There are a lot of steps to get a product to production and to market but since this is a modification of a product already in production, Steve at nightrider.com will be working those issues. No dates yet on availability but it shouldn't be too long.

    Last edited by Roger 04 RT; 04-15-2013 at 09:43 PM.

  9. #144
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjg04oh
    I had a chance to get out yesterday afternoon for a brief ride on the Interstate where I could get the bike into the upper gears. In 4th, 5th and 6th above 4000 rpm the AFR never got above 13.8, unlike the lower gears.

    Does anyone have an idea why the Motronic apparently goes open loop (AFR 14.4) above 4000 rpm in the lower gears, but not in the upper gears? AFR stays right around 13.8 at steady speed on level going all of the time except above 4000 rpm in 1st, 2nd & 3rd!

    I did observe a couple of times at higher rpm in the lower gears yesterday when the AFR dropped down to 13.8, but didn't get enough riding in to be able to replicate the conditions.
    Last week I took some data from the LC-1 to see what was happening. The conditions of the plot below were:

    Idled to log closed loop AFR.
    Road in second gear between 4000-5000 rpm, throttle locked
    Road in first gear 4000-5000 rpm, throttle locked.

    Conclusions:
    Above 4000 rpm in 1st or 2nd gear, the Motronic is Open Loop even if the throttle is locked-steady. Depending on throttle angle and load, the Motronic is leaner or richer than the lambda switch point, up to 4% lean.

    On my bike 4% lean is 14.4; on a stock bike it would be 15.3:1, very lean. Add in some cylinder mismatch and the leanest cylinder could get close to 16:1?certainly in surging territory. This is the best measured evidence I've seen of surge-able conditions being created by the Motronic. This is much leaner than anything observed so far. As more bikes run LC-1s the Motronic will give up more secrets.

    Also since the bike is Open Loop above 4K, the chart shows pretty good evidence of Adaptation being applied in the Open Loop area as the Open Loop AFRs seem well correlated to the lambda 0.94 target (13.8:1).

    RB


  10. #145
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EKinOR View Post
    Any updates on the plug and play LC1 (almost) equivalent? I'm either going to buy an LC1 or your new plug and play device, but I'd rather buy something plug and play.

    Any updates are appreciated!
    Back a couple of pages ago I posted a short update, here. The Proto 2 photo is below, a product for all R1150s, R1100S and K-bikes as well--any BMW that is fueled by a Motronic MA 2.4.

    The key pieces are the two BMW OEM connectors for which we now have a supply, you can see them in the photo. The connectors are what make it plug 'n play. Our manufacturing subcontractor has begun production on the first 25 units. Then after we've built the first couple dozen, we will gear production for a higher volume. Sometime in the next month I'll launch a web site that will allow the product to be delivered, the web site will be simple at first.

    Because I also have the LC-1 installed that the same time I can compare Proto 2 to the gold-standard LC-1. For the past week, I've continued to ride Proto 2 which works very well. This weekend I'll be removing Proto 2 from my bike and sending it to a beta-rider.

    I've also built an R1100, Motronic MA 2.2 proto which I'll post later this morning.

    So progress is good, I'm evaluating thoroughly so that when we turn on production buyers will be able to expect prompt delivery.


  11. #146
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Although I'm posting this in the Oilhead forum, I am doing so because it further shows the benefits of installing something like an LC-1 on a another model of motorcycle. In this case it was a friend's 2007 F800S. We began discussing the project about a month ago and it is now complete. Most of the installation took place over about a week.

    The F800S has a BMS-K the same as my friend Terry's installation last month on the R1200GSA. The same software settings worked but rather than a single load resistor to satisfy the BMS-K that an O2 sensor was installed, seven 1/4 watt 1000 ohm resistors were installed in parallel which you can see in the box below(he's a very neat craftsman) . His reasoning was that this would save space and slightly warm the box insides to keep it dry.

    There are also two relays added inside the box. The first was a relay to switch the power, rather than use the O2 sensor Heater+. The second was a relay controlled by a panel switch to allow selection between the LC-1's two analog outputs. He has one setting at lambda 1.00 (14.7:1, stock) and a second setting at lambda 0.94 (13.8:1, 6% richer). This was a clever idea and he can switch mixture on the fly. (He comments on below.)



    Hi Roger,

    I managed to finish the installation work on the bike - only a faulty USB cable and a missing driver for the USB to Serial converter took some time to figure out.

    And the first road tests (100 km today) have been really promising.

    First, I'm happy and proud that everything worked in the first attempt.
    --Function is easy to check with out lifting the seat to see the status led - what you do is to ride the bike at a steady speed, fix the throttle, read the current fuel consumption in the extended dashboard display, and flick the switch on. Two seconds later, the fuel consumption has stabilized it self at a slightly higher level.

    --Your calceulations were spot on: 4,4 l/100 km became 4,7 l and 3,3 l/100 km became 3,5 l when the richer mode was switched on. I know the dashboard reading is not 100% accurate and there's only one digit after the comma, but both tests are indicating a 6% increase in fuel consumption - or something close to that on a spot measurement.

    --So I'm not seeing a reduction in fuel consumption like you do, but it may be related to the non-ethanol fuel we got over here? (Editor's Note: I believe I get about the same fuel mileage overall at 6% richer due to being in one higher gear much of the time.)

    The F800 was never surging badly at constant speed, but with the richer mixture, it's definitely running smoother and feels stronger in all closed loop conditions. Quite funny actually, because now you can really feel how hard the lean burning engine was [struggling] before.

    I would like to take the bike to a Dyno at some point to have a performance run on both settings to compare them. My butt feeling says that the engine is a couple of horses stronger all the way from 3500 RPM to redline, and the torque dip around 4000 RPM seems to be gone. But a dyno run will tell if my butt is right?.

    So it seems that your recommendation of the LC-1 complimenting my BoosterPlug installation very nicely?Open & Closed Loop. It's a real pleasure to ride the bike now with balanced richer fueling.

    This setup is a keeper and is staying on my bike, and I'm happy that I have the capability to chose between fuel saving mode for cruising and power/fun mode for backroads and mountain riding.

    I'm taking the bike to a rally tomorrow that will involve 70-80 km backroad riding, so I will get a good chance to test the LC-1 further.

    Please accept my compliments for a bright idea and thanks for sharing it with me.

    All the best.

  12. #147
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    R1100 Prototype Lambda plug n play device.

    Today I got out for a test ride with an R1100 prototype device. It's appearance is just like the R1150 verson except the connectors are different so I built up it up with salvaged R1100 connectors on either end. Then I took a used R1100 (thimble style) O2 sensor, lambda element grounded to the case, different from the R1150 style, and installed the R1100 O2 sensor in my R1150RT's second O2 bung.

    Lastly I built an adapter cable to convert the R1100 style output connector to the R1150 connector. So the build-up was:

    R1100 O2 sensor, connecting to:
    R1100 Proto lambda device with R1100 connectors on either end, connecting to:
    R1100 to R1150 connector cable so that I could plug it into my R1150

    It worked as well as the R1150 version, maybe a little better. I believe that is due to the R1100 O2 sensor having a more powerful heater (guess?). There was no discernable temperature effect, meaning it was less sensitive to exhaust temperature than the R1150 sensor.

    It works well enough now that I will send it to a few R1100 owners soon for their feedback.

    The R1100 OEM connectors are decades old. It may be that the package will be a lambda shift device and a new R1100 O2 sensor, as a way of getting the needed OEM connector. It will add to the cost but many R1100 O2 sensors are very old and would probably benefit from replacement.

  13. #148
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Here another LC-1 install on a GS. The idle AFR variation he refers to was due to misadjust throttle stops. The throttle stop issue might not have been apparent for a while and it preceded the LC-1 install. One of the nice benefits here is that the constant AFR monitoring is a terrific diagnostic tool.


    Quote Originally Posted by FlipJr View Post
    I've been following your threads extensively regarding the wideband 02 sensor installation on your R1150RT. All the data and discussion you posted in the forum really got me interested so I went ahead and got the LC-1 kit for my '02 R1150GS.

    Installed it on Sunday, everything worked as planned. I put the 14.2 AFR tune you had posted on the installation guide in, adjusted the TB's for idle and balance again (idle was at like 1500 after the bike warmed up as it should). Today I took it out for an extended ride, about 250 miles.

    WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

    Acceleration across the board is better. Even starting out in first gear, the bike doesn't feel like it wants to stall below 1700 RPM. I can easily use one higher gear in all my driving, and there's no more pinging if I crack the throttle at low RPM.

    Cruising at 75 mph was so much more enjoyable as well. The buzzing in the hand grips was drastically reduced, and the throttle seems a lot more forgiving. Before the mod, the throttle was so sensitive it was like a balancing act between accelerating and decelerating, very hard to maintain a set speed (a lot of people call this surging, maybe, or lack of throttle finesse. It's hard to keep steady even with everything setup perfect ). After the mod, I feel that the throttle is more forgiving, much easier to control. Much more like my old R65 used to handle.

    I just wanted to say thanks for all your hard work and dedication to this project! It made the install a breeze.

  14. #149
    RD'nNH&AZ rdhudson's Avatar
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    Great news for my 1998 R1100R!

    Great news that this may be "THE" solution for the R1100R I just bought. Surged terribly when cold, better when warm and little when hot. Due to feedback from this forum I ran techron, cleaned the tank of old gas, replaced the fuel filter and checked the hoses, added Q disconnects, cleaned the BBS's, added premium gas, grounded the neg. side of the injectors, chirped them with 12 volts to assure opening, and changed out the oil temp sensor (thanks to rxcrider!!) for a known good one. If anything the bike runs worse! much worse! It's a my indie ex-BMW master tech for help. I'm in his hands now. I am flabbergasted that everything I have done has not helped and most got me into more problems. I was going to buy a Harmonizer but have gotten tech-phobia! I will be watching for this to be available as you know more about this system than anyone I can imagine!
    Thanks and keep at it.
    Ralph

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger 04 RT View Post
    R1100 Prototype Lambda plug n play device.

    Today I got out for a test ride with an R1100 prototype device. It's appearance is just like the R1150 verson except the connectors are different so I built up it up with salvaged R1100 connectors on either end. Then I took a used R1100 (thimble style) O2 sensor, lambda element grounded to the case, different from the R1150 style, and installed the R1100 O2 sensor in my R1150RT's second O2 bung.

    Lastly I built an adapter cable to convert the R1100 style output connector to the R1150 connector. So the build-up was:

    R1100 O2 sensor, connecting to:
    R1100 Proto lambda device with R1100 connectors on either end, connecting to:
    R1100 to R1150 connector cable so that I could plug it into my R1150

    It worked as well as the R1150 version, maybe a little better. I believe that is due to the R1100 O2 sensor having a more powerful heater (guess?). There was no discernable temperature effect, meaning it was less sensitive to exhaust temperature than the R1150 sensor.

    It works well enough now that I will send it to a few R1100 owners soon for their feedback.

    The R1100 OEM connectors are decades old. It may be that the package will be a lambda shift device and a new R1100 O2 sensor, as a way of getting the needed OEM connector. It will add to the cost but many R1100 O2 sensors are very old and would probably benefit from replacement.
    2002 F650GS, 1998 R1100R 75th anniversary edition, 1983 R80RT (just sold), 1959 R60 (in restoration), Honda CT90
    If you must make a mistake, make a new one each time.

  15. #150
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhudson View Post
    Great news that this may be "THE" solution for the R1100R I just bought. Surged terribly when cold, better when warm and little when hot. Due to feedback from this forum I ran techron, cleaned the tank of old gas, replaced the fuel filter and checked the hoses, added Q disconnects, cleaned the BBS's, added premium gas, grounded the neg. side of the injectors, chirped them with 12 volts to assure opening, and changed out the oil temp sensor (thanks to rxcrider!!) for a known good one. If anything the bike runs worse! much worse! It's a my indie ex-BMW master tech for help. I'm in his hands now. I am flabbergasted that everything I have done has not helped and most got me into more problems. I was going to buy a Harmonizer but have gotten tech-phobia! I will be watching for this to be available as you know more about this system than anyone I can imagine!
    Thanks and keep at it.
    Ralph
    Ralph,
    Rather than guessing about how this will work on a bad surging R1100, the beta unit is in Oregon now being ridden on an R1100RT for the rest of the month by one of the bmwmoa members who's a regular in this forum. I'd like to send the beta unit to you when he's done, when you're back in NH if you would be willing.
    RB

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