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Thread: 2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensors

  1. #151
    RD'nNH&AZ rdhudson's Avatar
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    That would be great.

    Roger,
    I'll know how good we can get this R1100R later in the week. I am in NH now and would love to try the Beta when it's back. I don't have any add-ons to improve this bike yet as I have only owned it long enough to ride it about 450 miles (bought just before snow here. I have no way to know but only 6,000 miles in 14 summers may be due to this issue. I will try to contact the origional owner to find out if it surged from the beginning or if I am seeing a new issue. Feel free to PM me if that works for you.
    Ralph
    2002 F650GS, 1998 R1100R 75th anniversary edition, 1983 R80RT (just sold), 1959 R60 (in restoration), Honda CT90
    If you must make a mistake, make a new one each time.

  2. #152
    Registered User rxcrider's Avatar
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    Roger - do you know how soon the bike starts using the O2 sensor to trim the fuel? Specifically, if Ralph had a broken heater wire, could that cause his cold running issues?

  3. #153
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    On the R1100s, the heater comes on with the fuel pump, so it essentially runs all the time. Closed Loop control on the 1150 starts at about 3-4 bars on the RID. On my 1150 it seems to take about 4-6 mins.

    I don't have a cold start profile on the 1100 yet but do have one on the 1150 single spark, dual spark and 1200 GS. They all have either a few or several minutes. I'd bet the curve is similar for the 1100. If you look at the top chart below, the first 4 minutes of the top curve shows the warm up enrichment function with much richer mixture. (The bottom curve also show the enrichment and there's a discussion of this plot a few pages back.

    It's hard to guess what's happening on Ralph's bike. If he installed a Wideband O2 datalogger, most likely he'd know right away what was happening to the bike when cold.

    Is there anything affecting: air balance when cold, throttle cable evenness of L/R throttle actuation, cold start lever somehow unbalancing the throttles, fuel injector cold performance, etc.

    There isn't a lot of information you can read from the MA 2.2 but you can readout error codes. That might be worth doing.




  4. #154
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    We've been running some tests with the LC-1 and my GS-911 on Wally's bike. I've learned about several differences on the R1150GS single-spark Motronic. The important differences are that the ECU's microprocessor seems slower, it's data acquisition seems less frequent, and the GS locates its O2 sensor in a place that seems to have less air flow. As a result, at regular idle, the Closed Loop period is a VERY slow 4 to 5 seconds. One to two seconds would be the norm.

    Other than that, the LC-1 and single-spark Motronic MA 2.4 play very well together. Here is a beautifully adapted cold start sequence with some notations.

    RB


  5. #155
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Thought I'd provide some updates on what's been going on lately.

    There are three beta devices circling their way around the US and Canada?r1100, R1150s. All are progressing very well.

    I took delivery of an R1200 wiring harness and harvested 4 female O2 connectors so I can build beta units for R1200s and F800s soon.

    For the Narrowband device I expect to get production approval units this week.

    On My R1150RT with LC-1
    I added a small switch to my lc-1 connector box. The switch has three positions: off (so I can run open loop when I want), connect to LC-1 analog 1, and connect to LC-1 analog 2 (analog 2 is usually for the gauge but can be programmed like analog 1). The switch connects to the black (O2+) wire in the O2 connector cable. This allows me to do an a/b comparison of two different mixtures with just a switch.

    I rode at lambda=1 which is 14.7:1, I'm doing it for comparison testing. I'll also try a very lean setting soon like 16.2:1 to measure economy.

    Here is an LC-1 report from a recent self-done implementation.

    "I'm really amazed by the performance of the motor with the LC-1. Peoples who don't try it are lacking something. I loved the old BMW powered with carburated motors because they had torque. Now with the LC-1 I have this feeling. Today I went for a high speed ride and I would be surprised to look at the time required to do 1/4 of miles. The motor revs fastly with authority. I'm in love with my bike.

    My AFR is settled at 0.925 and 0.915.

    The only drawback is idling which seems overly rich when it is cold and with the fast idle. The motor doesn't like to be kept at idle when cold because after some time it doesn't idle smoothly until I open the throttle to rev the bike. As stated I suspect overly rich mixture when cold and the exhaust gas stinks.

    Thanks a lot for everything."

  6. #156
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    I wanted to update the thread with a status report. The narrowband-shifting device manufacturer continues to make progress. Below is a photo of the device, with a generic connector to which a model-specific (R1100, R1150, R1200, F800) cable harness with OEM connectors gets attached. The installation procedure will be: plug in the OEM connectors (and connect a ground wire in some cases).

    Inside the "black box" is a small data acquistion and digital processor that intercepts the stock signal and sends a modified version to the Motronic.

    There should be a production version with a small first run in about a month. This probably seems like a slow process but the manufacturer is handling this in a professional manner, which takes time.


  7. #157
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
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    Narrow Band O2 Sensor Shift Device Beta Test Report

    June 2, 2013, prepared by Happy Wanderer

    I?ve returned from a 4,000+ mile beta test of Roger04RT?s narrowband O2 sensor shifting device on my 2000 R1100RT. Roger put one together for the 1100RT that was plug and play for beta testing purposes. Installation involved removing the right side fairing panel, unplugging the O2 sensor connector and plugging his device in series with existing connectors. Unlike the 1150 there is no ground wire required and installing it couldn?t be simpler. The device itself was placed under my seat on top of the air box for easy access. A 2mm hex tool, a few cable ties, resetting the ECU and about an hour is all that is required. The unit was installed on a well tuned stock bike known to be surging and averaging ~41 miles per US gallon.
    I did some initial local testing initially at both recommended test settings which were:
    F6 = 14.15 / 1 AFR or 4% enrichment
    F7 = 13.8 / 1 AFR or 6% enrichment
    Both settings produce noticeable changes and improvements. Initially I found F7 produced better results but long distance testing proved that F6 gave a better balance of performance and mileage improvements once adaptation by the ECU was allowed to complete.

    Riding Observations:
    - The first thing I noticed was in low gears (1, 2, and 3). Steady throttle in these gears typically produce a lot of annoying ?hunting? or surging which results in a jerky ride. This was smoothed out significantly with the device.
    - Roll on throttle performance is greatly improved especially in the higher gears. The wonderful thing about this is that you can put through those small towns in 4th or even 5th gear without the usual complaints from a big twin engine. Goodbye jerky, surging ride through small towns.
    - Available torque at low speeds in the higher gears is also much better. This allows you to slow down without shifting gears and then pull away again in a smooth controlled fashion. I normally downshift at around 3,000 RPM but found myself and bike quite comfortable down at 2,000 and even lower in some cases. When I noticed this I was quite surprised so I went riding around some back streets where traffic was light to nonexistent and tried it again several times. There is definitely a lot more smooth acceleration power available at low RPM. No pinging, no complaint from the engine at all, it just rolls on and away you go.
    - The transition from on and off throttle is also smoother. This is great when adjusting your speed in traffic. The throttle is less snatchy.
    - The fuel cutoff lurch you feel on an 1100 around 1500 to 1700 RPM as you come to a stop in gear is less pronounced. Still there but not as harsh.
    Mileage Data:
    My former average was 41 mpg. The data I collected over 4,000+ miles of riding shows it is now 44.6 mpg or 2.4% better on average.
    Noteworthy points in the data: (see table below)
    - Change in performance from the 7 setting to the leaner 6 setting
    - Mileage improving over time during the first several days (Motronic 2.2 ECU adapting)
    - Performance at high altitude desert conditions (Utah and Arizona) is just excellent.

    To summarize the riding test I would say my bike is much happier running a slightly richer mixture. And happy bike = happy wanderer. J Although the surging is not completely gone as has been experienced and documented on the 1150 it is reduced to a much more manageable level. I am highly suspicious that this is due to my fuel injectors not being perfectly matched but having them cleaned again and re tested will have to wait until much later in the riding season or perhaps when I am gone on one of the other bikes for a couple of weeks!
    Oh and one more important comment. I have to remove the beta and send it back to Roger now?
    And I am NOT happy about that one bit!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

  8. #158
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Part 1 of 4

    Earlier in this thread, Terry posted on the installation of dual LC-1s on his 2011 R1200GSA. Since that time he's ridden thousands of miles but importantly, has continued to log air-to-fuel ratio (AFR) and engine data by using the LC-1s and a GS-911 in tandem. I've digested several of his test rides into four charts that I'll explain in four posts. The BMSK has some very good features that solve problems of the Motronic MA 2.2 and 2.4.

    R1100s and R1150s use two generations (or three if you include dual-spark) of Motronics for controlling spark timing and fueling. Each of those systems works with one O2 sensor that is placed in a spot where it measures the average oxygen content of the exhaust. The R1200 has two O2 sensors (and knock sensing) which supply additional data to its engine control unit called the BMSK.

    On an R1200, the BMSK manages two mostly independent Closed Loop programs. This means that it can nearly perfectly balance the left and right cylinders. This is an important feature that essentially eliminates surging. On 1100/1150s we meticulously balance air with TB syncs and valve adjustments but have to ignore fuel imbalances. Not so on the 1200, using its two O2 sensors it can easily equalize fuel, keeping left/right power (air plus fuel) equal?no surging, and a smoother engine. On 1100/1150s your choices are to clean and measure your injectors for balance or to add a few percent more fuel so that all the oxygen gets burned, making fuel imbalances less important, diminishing surging and making the engine smoother.

    Although this is an Oilhead forum I feel that some of the insights from the R1200 will be beneficial to R1150 and R1100 riders too. So to that end Terry disconnected one of this two O2 sensors, reset his BMSK so we could see what things look like before Adaptation cleans-up the left/right cylinder differences and then reconnected the O2 and watched what happened (next post). He also made a short test ride with an O2 sensor disconnected to see what happened when an O2 failed.

    One O2 Disconnected, BMSK Reset, Cold Start
    Using the LC-1s, Terry's AFR has been programmed 7% rich and therefore his AFR runs around 13.6:1. In the left-hand LC-1 chart below take a look at the connected cylinder's AFR (purple line). One of the first things you can see is that the R1200 gets into Closed Loop operation very fast, only needing about 20 seconds or so (my 2004 RT takes a few minutes to warm enough to run Closed Loop). If you look very closely at the chart there is a difference between the purple and black lines at startup--about 4% AFR difference. Terry's bike is well tuned (TB Balanced and Valves) so I believe is the natural AFR imbalance of his motorcycle, a combination of a small fuel and a small air imbalance. This natural imbalance is interesting because it could easily exist on any 1100/1150, we just wouldn't know it.

    The cylinder without an O2 is running pretty rich, in part because he has an air-temperature shift device adding 6% and in part because there is a slowly declining warmup enrichment (notice the injection time coming down), but also because without an O2 on one cylinder the BMSK seems to be leaving a margin of error toward the rich.

    Looking on the right hand chart, which is GS-911 data over the same time period as the LC-1 chart on the left, you can see the base injection time (blue line). When cold the pulses are about 4.5 mS long and within 20-30 seconds they have been reduced to 2.5 mS. The same base time is used for both cylinders but there are also two LCFs (Lambda Correction Factors), one for each cylinder. Looking at the red line you can see that the Closed Loop program which creates the LCFs reduces the fueling to about 82% of the base time. The disconnect cylinder doesn't have any way to calculate an LCF and it stays at 100% and that cylinder remains rich.

    The key takeaways here are: fast warm-up with O2 connected, 4% difference between the cylinders with no Closed Loop correction and the LCFs which are the short term Adaptation Values that I've mentioned before in this thread. Later there will be some charts showing long term Adaptation. You can also see what's going to happen in the short term if you lose an O2 sensor.


  9. #159
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Part 2 of 4

    In Part 1 we saw the 4% initial imbalance between the left and right cylinders of Terry's 2011 R1200GSA and then what happened in Open Loop with only one of the O2 sensors attached. The LCFs (lambda control factors) also showed how the BMS-K calculates its Adaptation Values. Next is how the injection time and both LCFs interact when the second O2 sensor is reconnected.

    Reconnected #2 oxygen sensor
    Looking at the lefthand side of the first chart below, at about 9:02 (point labeled 1) the second oxygen sensor is reconnected. It only takes about 15 seconds for the BMSK to smoothly compute the second cylinder LCF and lock Closed Loop, and in the process make a 14% fueling correction. If you look closely at the LCFs on the righthand side, they are 8% apart, more than immediately after being reset (about 4% at the start of the chart in post 1 on this topic). I don't have an explanation for this difference.

    At point 2, the throttle is blipped, the BMSK sets both LCFs to 1.00 (it's in Open Loop mode) and you can see that the AFRs both go rich, but one is richer and the richness lasts longer. Later, when the BMSK has fully adapted, I'll show that both cylinders are nearly perfectly AFR equalized. The BMSK is simply amazing.




    Looking at the chart below, the lefthand LCF graph is the same as above, but the righthand graph shows what's happening with the idle stepper motors (which seem to run in sync in the data I have on hand). What the BMSK does next, knowing that it has both O2s running, is to begin normalizing other aspects of its operation. First notice in the LCF graph on the left that both LCFs head together several percent richer. Since almost everything else has stayed the same (spark timing, RPM and TPS), why is the BMSK Closed Loop routine requiring more fuel (as seen in the LCF trend upward)?

    The simple answer is that just before connecting the second O2 sensor, the average of the two LCFs was 0.92 (1.00 vs 0.84). After the second O2 is plugged and its LCF has adjusted, the average LCF (on the right of the chart) is 0.86, less fuel on average to hold the idle at around 1150.

    The other interesting thing going on is that the idle stepper motor value is dropping. It looks like when both cylinders are balanced by the Closed Loop programs, both O2 sensors running, it takes less fuel (average LCF lower) and less air (idle motors lower).

    So there's the Cold Start sequence and the role of O2 sensors, idle stepper motors and the BMSK's symphonic handling of its sensors and the LCFs (Adaptations). I believe that this is relevant to Motronic MA 2.2 and 2.4s (1100s/1150s) because there are things like this going on inside those ECUs as well. I hope this helps to illustrate the types of processes in Closed Loop that are more visible on the BMSK.


  10. #160
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Part 3 of 4

    Test Ride on One O2 Sensor
    On one of the tests, Terry left the cylinder 2 O2 sensor disconnect and went out for a ride to see what would happen. He told me that he barely made it out of the driveway the bike was running so roughly. And that's no surprise, one of his cylinders was in Closed Loop and running an AFR of 13.65:1 and the other was Open Loop and running and AFR of 11.4:1, hugely richer.

    He persevered though and got out for about 10 minutes of mismatched torture before he reconnected cylinder two's O2 sensor.

    The chart below shows about 6 minutes of that ride. It is remarkable. If you look closely, you can see that cylinder two's Open Loop fueling starts to converge towards Cylinder one's Closed Loop fueling. How is that happening? I can't be 100% certain without more tests but it seems pretty clear that the BMSK is using data from cylinder one's Closed Loop to estimate the fueling needed by cylinder 2. Wow!

    A more important thing to note is the enormous variation in fueling when there is no O2 sensor. Cylinder one's fueling is tight to 13.65:1 whereas cylinder two's fueling varies grossly between 11.4 and 13.65. I saw this exact behavior on the R1150's Motronic and expect it would be the same on R1100s (except when an Open Loop coding plug was used). This certainly appears to be BMW/Bosch's Limp Home fueling strategy--significantly vary the mixture and hope that the catalytic converter gathers some oxygen during the lean peaks so it can function at times.

    Running one cylinder with O2 and one without turned out to be a great way to show what happens when you run BMW motorcycles in Open Loop. There is a huge takeaway here: If you disconnect the O2 sensors and add a Power Commander V, you will run on the Limp Home fueling pattern and lose all the features that I've shown in these first three posts.

    On the 1100s and 1150s, Power Commander has a Wideband O2 sensor so the behavior is different but as I will explain in a few days, not really optimal. (LGW loaned my a PC III USB with Wideband and I've made some tests against the LC-1.)


  11. #161
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Part 4 of 4

    R1200GSA Fully Adapted Demonstration Ride
    On his way home from HelnBack, after about 20-30 hours of riding, Terry logged his AFRs for several hours. Below is about 1 1/2 minutes of one of the segments so you can see the degree to which the BMSK has adapted the AFRs of his two cylinders to be equal. They are nearly carbon copies of one another. I continue to be amazed by how well the BMSK manages the motorcycle.

    While the chart pretty much speaks for itself, here are some notes:
    --The tall peaks are Overrun Fuel Cutoff during deceleration. Note how well and how quickly the BMSK gets the engine back to its target AFR--13.65:1 in Terry's case using the LC-1s.

    --The acceleration AFR dips which varied prior to adaptation in the post 2 of this series are very uniform. Even during acclereation, the AFRs track. The richest mixtures are about 11.8:1 (richer than a stock bike because of Adaptation to his 13.65 Closed Loop target).

    --About the leanest the BMSK puts the mixture is about 15:1 during normal deceleration (in other words, not Overrun Cutoff). This would approach 16:1 on a stock bike as its target Closed Loop would be leaner. Also keep in mind that nowhere in the hours of logs Terry sent was there a leaner than target fueling during cruise or acceleration. If during Dyno runs, you see grossly lean AFRs recorded it is most likely due to the Dyno's Wideband AFR gauge in the tailpipe.

    So that's it, probably too much detail but I hope that we all know more about how the BMW ECUs work. A big thank you from me to Terry for accumulating this data. Nice work!

    RB



  12. #162
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    I had the opportunity to test Roger's narrowband O2 shift device. Here's my review:

    http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthre...ce-test-report

  13. #163
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Last weekend a package arrived from a forum colleague who has decided to install the Innovate Motorsports MTX-L on his 2003 R1150RT. The MTX-L is an LC-1 and water-resistant gauge in a single package. It should perform just like the LC-1.

    Inside the package was a Power Commander III USB with Wideband O2 sensor that was being replaced by the MTX-L. I've been eager to test the PC III for a while since on paper it seemed like a plug & play option for mixture richening. After running it for three days, it is an option, but I wasn't impressed.

    Here are my notes:
    1) The Closed loop lambda error of its Wideband was large. To get a closed loop of 13.8 you needed to program 14.4. Its programming was 14.2 when it arrived here which means it was actually at about 13.6. This is consistent with the carbon on the sensor when it arrived. I spoke to tech support at Dynojet about this. They said the unit self calibrated but clearly it didn't. To me, 0.3 afr would be the largest acceptable error, it was off by 0.8 afr.

    2) The PC III BMW fuel table is a unique product. Unlike any other PC III it has Closed Loop and Open Loop fuel table cells. The Cells in the Closed Loop area are disabled. This leads to the complex problem that the Motronic through adaptation will add to open loop what it adds to closed loop. That is not documented. It means before deciding what values to add to the Open Loop cells you must wait for the Motronic to finish adapting. Of course there's no way to know when that happens.

    It would be better if all cells in the fuel table were programmable. Then if you were moving afr 6% plus 4% for E10, you would enter +10 into the closed loops cells and adaptation would be minimal. The way it works you could have an invisible 10% added to Open Loop through adaptation and then be adding fuel on top of that! It is as confusing as it sounds.

    The Closed Loop area defined by the PC and the Motronic are likely different. I communicated with PC tech support about this and they acknowledged it. As long as the PC area is bigger than the Motronic area it's not much of a problem but I couldn't confirm that.

    3) The software is unique, has no upgrades, support or documentation. Here is what PC said, "You are correct, in that there is not an available firmware update for your type of Power Commander. It is a unique unit, and unlike all of the other standard Power Commander 3 usb units. It also is not compatible with any of the accessories like LCD, Quickshifter, etc."

    4) It is truly plug and play and only took me 10 minutes to install since I have a second O2 bung and since my O2 connector was relocated so that it's not under the fuel tank. That said, you double the number of connectors for the TPS and each FI and need to take a lot of care dressing them so they don't interfere with the throttle linkage.

    5) There is no AFR datalogging software as with the LC-1.

    I was excited about the possibilities of the PC III for BMW with Wideband O2 but came away feeling that it is really two separate products that aren't well integrated or supported.
    RB

  14. #164
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    On another site I made some comments about availability for R1150s with OEM connectors and other motorcycles. Here is what I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by EKinOR
    Just a follow up to my post on on Roger's test device. After having to uninstall the test unit I did a 100 mile day ride, two up. The difference was really noticeable. Even with a really good TB sync using a Harmonizer across multiple RPMs, I had noticeable surging after the uninstall. Low RPM roll-on was significantly reduced as well. I think the uninstall made the differences more noticeable, as the Motronic gets reset, and unlike with the install, there is no adaptation going on, as it's back to base line.

    I will be buying one! I heartily recommend every 1150 owner get one, along with an IAT shifting device such as the IICE Air or Booster Plug.
    Thanks Eric, glad to hear. I've sent you production unit one just yesterday. No reason to live with a stock bike much longer. These BMWs really respond to just a bit more fuel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ch
    That's where I'm leaning right now....I'm going to wait a couple of weeks and see what the final cost is - I sent an email to Nightrider.com since they have a waitlist email on the site.
    Steve@nightrider won't list these on his site until the volumes build so what I've agreed to do so that this gets going: I've purchased four dozen sets of OEM connectors and will place a series of bulk orders. Then I'll find a way to distribute and let everyone know soon. There will probably be a page in the advrider.com vendors section. I will have an announcement any day soon.

    After that we will also list a generic cable while we test and shore up supplies for R1200s, F800s and R1100s. The generic cable would allow someone to add it to their existing O2 sensor, avoiding the wait for OEM connector availability. It will be a cut and crimp operation.

  15. #165
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    Not having the time right now to read all the posts, the questions I have are: Will it work on an R 1100 RT, how much does it cost, what else do I need to buy, when can I get one?
    I used to post here, but now I don't.

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