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Thread: can we go deeper on Dyna Beads and balancing?

  1. #46
    Cam Killer marchyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboRider View Post

    Marchy, I've heard about guys lightly grinding away at the rim to produce a perfectly balanced wheel with no tire. Seems a bit obsessive/compulsive to me. Have you ever calculated how many grams out of balance your bare wheel is? I keep meaning to do that, but never get around to it.
    My BMW rim sucks with respect to balance. I'm not even sure it meets BMW specs but I didn't realize that until long after the warranty period had passed. Anyway.... after enough tire changes I realized I was often putting the same number of weights at the same location as the ones I'd removed with the old tire. Then I made matters worse by adding in internal tire pressure monitor.

    My solution was to balance the wheel with tire pressure monitor installed. It required 70 grams of added weight without tire. I still check the balance after mounting new tires. Most of the time the wheel is well enough balanced I need add no more weight. Sometimes I have to add another 5-15 grams someplace or another.

    I've ground down parts of pistons to get a matched pair, but never wheels.

  2. #47
    God? What god? roborider's Avatar
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    Yes, I had suggested this before, and said I'd do it on my next tire change. But I always seem to be in a hurry and need my tires asap! Also, the beads became all clumpy and nasty with rubber bits, so I just tossed them out and went back to the tried, true, and cheap static balance.

    For this test to be scientifically meaningful, the rider should ride the bike on the same course about 6 times: 3 in balance, 3 out of balance, and he should not ever know which condition the bike is in until he has reported his thoughts on all the rides to avoid the placebo effect.

    It would be a good test.

    Also, I bet it would take a lot of weight to make a wheel out of balance enough to be noticed on the street. An ounce at least, I bet. Now that is a test I should try.
    Rob C. , Raleigh, NC
    '10 R12RT, R90/6
    2007 CBR600RR & 09 V-Star
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  3. #48
    Unfunded content provider tommcgee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dstuckmann View Post
    I would think that someone could have feedback on this by the end of the day and finally put this issue to bed!
    That's never gonna happen. This topic will always be "an oil thread".
    Salty Fog Rally 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012, AND LOOKING FORWARD TO 2014!

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  4. 05-16-2011, 10:07 PM

  5. #49
    Curmudgeon in training
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinPH View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by MotorradMike View Post
    That is one of the infamous videos.

    Here is the other.
    This one is much more compelling because of the strobe stop action. As well, note this is a different company using the same principle in a different way.

    IMO these 2 videos together should be enough to convince anyone of the physics involved.
    You can also see the physics up close and personal if you put some clothes in your top loading washer and watch how it works on the spin cycle.

    It's interesting that some people think for dynabeads to work they would have to defy the laws of nature, but those same people most likely wouldn't think there's anything abnormal about how a washing machine tub stays balanced during the spin cycle.

  6. #50
    BOKRIJDER
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    Quote Originally Posted by alzyck View Post
    You can also see the physics up close and personal if you put some clothes in your top loading washer and watch how it works on the spin cycle.

    It's interesting that some people think for dynabeads to work they would have to defy the laws of nature, but those same people most likely wouldn't think there's anything abnormal about how a washing machine tub stays balanced during the spin cycle.

    Well said. Static and dynamic balance are two very different animals. What does dynamic balancing make possible -- jet engines, high performance helicopters, one popular brand of aircraft high output reciprocating engines uses swinging crankshaft counterweights, and yes, washing machines. Our bike tires probably fall somewhere between these extremes.
    I static balance - why, because it is generally good enough, but one cannot argue about the effectiveness or physics of dynamic balancing.

    Bokrijder

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommcgee View Post
    That's never gonna happen. This topic will always be "an oil thread".
    Here's your lullaby on beads: They are cheap(I have a huge bag for $20-call it a lifetime supply) and can be installed easily/quickly & reused(mine get black but not lumped or unusable), can be installed/reinstalled at my house-not some remote dealer/shop on their time schedule and me paying for something that falls off or fails to correct the constantly changing balance dynamic(carrying weights around doesn't fix a constantly changing tire weight!) & they don't pollute the environment. I dare you to read up on the amount of wheel weights that enter the roadway! And another tidbit: after 1,000's of miles they are happily kicking around in there doing the job...
    Honestly the hardest part is the tapping the install tubing with a screwdriver as they try to cling to their buddies before entering their black tire prison. Static cling makes for a slow but lazy few minutes.
    I did a quick search on OEM wheel balance/runout specs but failed to get to the heart of it. I would think that in practice a "good but used" wheel is more likely to have runout than out of balance, but thats a guess. Tires being handmade circles are the seemingly imperfect aspect of that senario and given that they wear unevenly become more out of spec. Unless bent a wheel is true and a constant. Oh, and it's raining here again for the , well, I've lost count # of days...

  8. #52
    Lucky motorradmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokrijder View Post
    I static balance - why, because it is generally good enough.

    Bokrijder
    I agree. Marchyman figures he gets to within a few grams. There's a lot of other vibration going on and no point in whipping a dead horse.

    Mostly I'm chiming in now to thank you guys for honest meaningful posts. It's all about getting this sorted one way or the other without mindless trash talk.

    Thanks for making this the best Dynabead thread in which I've participated!
    There have been a few.
    I have some scars.
    Mike Marr
    1978 Yamaha XS750 (Needs rings), 1996 BMW R1100RS, 2004 Honda CRF230F

  9. #53
    "Running Out The Clock" grafikfeat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dstuckmann View Post
    I would think that...by the end of the day...finally put this issue to bed!
    It's hard to do when everyone wants to be right.

    Bottom line is to just try them. They're easy enough to put in.
    If you don't see/feel any difference dump 'em on the next tire swap.

    Waste of time and energy arguing over them. Just try 'em and end the mystery.

    Some good explanations/images given here.





    Take a look:


    http://www.bestrestproducts.com/c-100-dyna-beads.aspx

  10. #54
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    Going to try 'em!

    I washed my bike last month, one Saturday afternoon. On Sunday morning I noticed a wheel weight lying in the driveway!! Dang!!! I suspect I'm not the only one to have this experience......right?

    Seems like most folks posting about their experiences with DynaBeads almost always have something positive to say, so I'm going to give 'em a try. I'm guessing they can't be worse than wheel weights that come off in the wash. If they are, I'm only out a few bucks and a few hours to pull the tires and remove them.
    Piperjim

    '95 R1100RS
    '61 John Deere 3010 LP

  11. #55
    No bugs in winter OHScot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alzyck View Post
    You can also see the physics up close and personal if you put some clothes in your top loading washer and watch how it works on the spin cycle.

    It's interesting that some people think for dynabeads to work they would have to defy the laws of nature, but those same people most likely wouldn't think there's anything abnormal about how a washing machine tub stays balanced during the spin cycle.
    Good lord my washing machine will vibrate so badly it will walk across the floor and unplug itself. Only when in the spin cycle OK at slow speeds. I would expect some damnping of vibration with the beads but seems to be a dynamic solution to a static problem.
    Last edited by OHScot; 05-18-2011 at 01:47 AM. Reason: can't spell or type
    "Wow I didn't know BMW made motorcycles, Yeah I think Honda does too."

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperjim View Post
    I washed my bike last month, one Saturday afternoon. On Sunday morning I noticed a wheel weight lying in the driveway!! Dang!!! I suspect I'm not the only one to have this experience......right?

    Seems like most folks posting about their experiences with DynaBeads almost always have something positive to say, so I'm going to give 'em a try. I'm guessing they can't be worse than wheel weights that come off in the wash. If they are, I'm only out a few bucks and a few hours to pull the tires and remove them.
    The one in your driveway is a small part of the 12.5 million pounds that don't get recycled each year!Not to blame your one weight for anything. Google "lead wheel weights in the environment" for a real eye opener! Using lead weights in NY state is a $1000 fine as of now. I have tried to state this many times but it isn't hitting home: lead weights have to go.

    I too am trying to be positive and say they have to go and beads are a way to do that-even better see if the tire even needs weight!

  13. #57
    BOKRIJDER
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    Quote Originally Posted by OHScot View Post

    " I would expect some damnping of vibration with the beads but seems to be a dynamic solution to a static problem."

    OH,

    You have hit the nail on the head, albeit in a twisted way.

    Allow me to play with your statement. "Dynamic balance solution to a static balance problem." Static balance problem ?? -- only when the bike is standing in the driveway.

    Inverted to accurately describe tire and wheel static balancing

    "Static balance solution to a dynamic balance problem."

    This is what we are doing when we static balance a tire.

    Why is it a dynamic balance problem - because the bike tires are spinning when in use. Dynamic balance is rotational balance. However we static balance because it is quick, cheap, easy, and chiefly "Good enough".
    If we were to consult Mr. Newton, he would tell us that we are doing it all wrong, but that's OK as most don't mind getting "one over" on Mother Nature.

    Dyna Beads simply play by Mr. Newton's rules. Dynamic balance solution for a dynamic balance problem. Ever see a high tech spin balancer at a tire shop? That's a dynamic balancer. Even this high tech machine is a compromise as the technician attaches fixed weights. Why a compromise? - perfect dynamic balance is tied to a specific RPM. At every RPM a slightly different weight placement is required.

    Hmmmm - what we really need is a movable weight mass which would automatically move to the proper location throughout the desired operating range.
    Slowly turn a fan jet engine -- what's all of that rattling, jingling, and jangling? Sounds like bucket of bolts. Must be something loose in there, but when it is running - smooth as silk, Hmm. Dynas free to move in the tire, Hmm
    Why or how? For the sake of this post, "PFM" Pure F ---- Magic!! I'm sure that's what many said when Isaac first put forth his ideas. " Isaac, that's got to be PFM!!"

    That's that, if they are difficult to install, clump, irritate, stick or cost too much - that's another topic.

    Please excuse me, I'm short on time. I've got a pair of tires to mount and static balance.

    Bokrijder

  14. 05-18-2011, 04:12 PM

  15. #58
    Certifiable User Mike_Philippens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kantuckid View Post
    Using lead weights in NY state is a $1000 fine as of now.
    Using as in putting them on a bike or having them on your bike? In other words: can I pass through NY state with there lead weights on my wheels?
    -=- if you always see the road ahead of you, it's not worth the trip -=-

  16. #59
    No bugs in winter OHScot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokrijder View Post
    OH,

    You have hit the nail on the head, albeit in a twisted way.

    Allow me to play with your statement. "Dynamic balance solution to a static balance problem." Static balance problem ?? -- only when the bike is standing in the driveway.

    Inverted to accurately describe tire and wheel static balancing

    "Static balance solution to a dynamic balance problem."

    This is what we are doing when we static balance a tire.

    Why is it a dynamic balance problem - because the bike tires are spinning when in use. Dynamic balance is rotational balance. However we static balance because it is quick, cheap, easy, and chiefly "Good enough".
    If we were to consult Mr. Newton, he would tell us that we are doing it all wrong, but that's OK as most don't mind getting "one over" on Mother Nature.

    Dyna Beads simply play by Mr. Newton's rules. Dynamic balance solution for a dynamic balance problem. Ever see a high tech spin balancer at a tire shop? That's a dynamic balancer. Even this high tech machine is a compromise as the technician attaches fixed weights. Why a compromise? - perfect dynamic balance is tied to a specific RPM. At every RPM a slightly different weight placement is required.

    Hmmmm - what we really need is a movable weight mass which would automatically move to the proper location throughout the desired operating range.
    Slowly turn a fan jet engine -- what's all of that rattling, jingling, and jangling? Sounds like bucket of bolts. Must be something loose in there, but when it is running - smooth as silk, Hmm. Dynas free to move in the tire, Hmm
    Why or how? For the sake of this post, "PFM" Pure F ---- Magic!! I'm sure that's what many said when Isaac first put forth his ideas. " Isaac, that's got to be PFM!!"

    That's that, if they are difficult to install, clump, irritate, stick or cost too much - that's another topic.

    Please excuse me, I'm short on time. I've got a pair of tires to mount and static balance.

    Bokrijder
    I was thinking, in balance is in balance. Problem with static balance is it would drive you crazy trying to balance the tire in quadrants a la computer spin. My understanding of the computer spin balance is it spins the tire so the machine can read where it is out of balance. Although all the ones I have used you usually never end up with more than 3 weights usually 1 sometimes 2. It is the PFM in the computer sensors that make or break the thing. Old manual spin balancers were more of a 1 position deal, spin again see if you could make it better. Sometime just slam a weight on somewhere to try to get it close enough for the thing to stop shaking. But my thinking is balance does not change static or dynamic with the exception that most spinning things have a critical speed ( whole nother animal that is ).

    What is the phrase Pothing is Nerfect.
    "Wow I didn't know BMW made motorcycles, Yeah I think Honda does too."

  17. #60
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewmeister View Post
    I bought NON-LEAD weights from riders warehouse,arostitch,no lead!
    Unleaded gas and now wheel weights...whoda-thunk
    Steve Henson
    SABMWRA MOA Club#62's Flat Fixer/ current forum moderator
    It's not the breaths you take, but the moments that take your breath away-D.Dillon/G. Strait

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