With the stricter Euro emission standards around the corner will HD not exclude itself from the market across the pond (unless it starts mating the water cooled V-Rod with it's current line-up)?
Maybe it's not a concern for the Motor Co because their market share of new bikes there is too small?
Anyone know?
They definitely seem to be concerned. They may be able to continue to squeak by by increasing cc's wo getting any major bumps in hp/tq. Seems to be the current pattern.
They have an interesting patent for hidden water cooling and radiator parts. They can do it and retain the look.
Rod
The Stratoliner is air cooled like Oilheads and Hexheads: that is, not much. From totalmotorcycle.com's review...which is clearly cut-and-paste from a Yamaha factory tech handout:Originally Posted by milo
The dry sump oil lubrication system has been optimized to ensure maximum lubrication and cooling . Special oil nozzles direct oil at the bottom of the pistons to cool and lubricate them.
and
Frame mounted oil cooler is a first on a Yamaha cruiser. The cooler maintains consistent oil temperatures for optimum cooling and lubrication of this massive V-twin powerplant.
David Brick
Santa Cruz CA
2007 R1200R
Air/oil cooling has limitations especially when it comes to emissions and noise, some sort of liquid cooling is enviable for larger displacement bikes
Funny for all the spy shots of liquid cooled boxers their have been no press releases from BMW
Wonder if it's still a ways off for the US market
My opinion if your going to liquid cooling wouldn't their be a more efficient design than a boxer, don't get me wrong I have two of them and think their great engines just saying
Yep but enough, same as modern Harley's. Oil sprays at the bottom of the pistons and there are factory oil coolers.
No car is as fun to drive as any motorcycle is to ride.
The weight
This is my first post here, so don't judge to harshly. Let me pre-face by saying that I am currently struggling with a dilemma whether to trade my 2004 R1200C Montauk for a 2012 R1200R Classic or not. In some ways it is a monumental struggle because Monty is just so beautiful while R1200R is a fantastic roadster that provides a much more controlled "flight" at higher speeds and greater cornering. I would have loved to have both, but I only have 1 parking space for my car and my Monty. So there.
After reading comments like the one I am quoting above I still have questions that I feel should be answered for those of us who are on the fence for one reason or another.
1. Does anyone know the weight of a motorcycle water cooling system on a typical 1200cc twin?
2. How would the weight of the water cooling system compare to the weight of a balance shaft or counterweights on the crankshaft on a twin non-boxer motorcycle engine with 1200cc displacement?
3. It appears that the argument above (and many like it before on this site as well as ADVrider site) emphasizes the fact that a BMW boxer engine's primary benefit is its ability to air-cool by sticking out into the wild and thus avoid extra weight. Then, the argument goes, why keep the "odd" configuration if water-cooling is added, but for vanity purposes. Following this logic, wouldn't you then agree that a manufacturer such as Subaru should have stopped using boxer engines? Why do they continue? Is it because boxer engines offer other benefits such as counterbalance-less (lighter) and faster crankshaft or good primary (engine) balance, which on its own leads to other, multiple benefits?
4. Because we can only speculate at this point let's make some educated guesses for an upcoming 2013 (or 2014) R1200GS specs and compare them to the current R1200GS Adventure.
Current GS Adv. dry weight is 490lbs.
Let's assume that the whole water-cooling system will add another 10lbs (radiator, pump, etc. etc.) A typical aluminum radiator weights about 1,8kg or about 4lbs, a pump is about 0.5lb. So, I am going conservative (I think).
Let's assume that the gain in power will be 35hp bringing the total from current 109hp to 144hp. (it is possible that they are going for a major Multistrada kill by aiming at above 150hp number)
Let's assume that the gain in torque will be 8lbs-ft bringing the total from current 89lbs-ft to 97lbs-ft.
Thus, the value for a new hp/lbs ratio will be 144/(490+10) = 0.29hp for every pound of the motorcycle's weight. The old value was 109/490 = 0.22hp.
The value for a new Mo(torque)/lbs ratio will be 97/(490+10) = 0.195Mo. The old value was 89/490 = 0.18Mo.
5. Is it possible that BMW finds a way to maintain the current dry weight or even reduce it? If yes, then gains will be even more pronounced.
6. Is it possible that BMW's goal is not to conform to "traditionalists" and keep the boxer as a marketing ploy, but rather improve the power output while keeping all major benefits of the this engine's configuration?
Yet, answers to these questions and encouraging calculations somehow do not help the grinding dilemma in my head
The cooling system itself probably would weigh 15-20 pounds per BMW standards. Don't forget the engine block itself is larger to accommodate the cooling pipes. Add in the weight of the coolant itself & you are in the 25-30 pound increase. With the more recent efforts to lighten bikes, it may be that they can reduce that, but since the motivation of keeping the boxer would be to keep a similar look, they need to locate the radiator and water pump away from the rest of the engine, so they can hide it behind panels, which means longer hose runs, etc & thus may impact weight savings. I would still expect a 20-25 pound minimum increase.
1. Does anyone know the weight of a motorcycle water cooling system on a typical 1200cc twin?
2. How would the weight of the water cooling system compare to the weight of a balance shaft or counterweights on the crankshaft on a twin non-boxer motorcycle engine with 1200cc displacement?
Boxers already have a balance shaft, so there isn't any weight advantage for them in that regard.
Boxer layouts generally have a benefit of a lower center of gravity and torque benefits. The primary balance is an advantage, but at higher performance implementations, typically have counterbalancers as well. If the cylinders aren't exactly synced, the balance is offset & thus the need for secondary balance tools.
3. It appears that the argument above (and many like it before on this site as well as ADVrider site) emphasizes the fact that a BMW boxer engine's primary benefit is its ability to air-cool by sticking out into the wild and thus avoid extra weight. Then, the argument goes, why keep the "odd" configuration if water-cooling is added, but for vanity purposes. Following this logic, wouldn't you then agree that a manufacturer such as Subaru should have stopped using boxer engines? Why do they continue? Is it because boxer engines offer other benefits such as counterbalance-less (lighter) and faster crankshaft or good primary (engine) balance, which on its own leads to other, multiple benefits?
In a motorcycle application, the lower center of gravity is lost because of the need to raise the enine in the frame to offer sufficient ground clearance while leaning The original motivation for the design was to offer natural cooling. Performance was secondary & lean angles were not a primary concern. As motorcycles performance increased, the lean angle limitations have required raising the motor in the frame, and often increased ground clearance (thus tall seat heights).
I would not expect that large of a performance increase. I think a more likely increase may be 10-15HP. The cam heads only saw a 1HP increase & they were ported from a performance boxer design HP2 that made an additional 13HP over the standard boxers. Building a bike for reliability vs pure performance typically reduces the power increases. Ducati has always been about performance, reliability and maintenance windows have been much lower priorities. I don't think it is realistic to expect a BMW to have similar performance numbers.
Let's assume that the gain in power will be 35hp bringing the total from current 109hp to 144hp. (it is possible that they are going for a major Multistrada kill by aiming at above 150hp number)
Let's assume that the gain in torque will be 8lbs-ft bringing the total from current 89lbs-ft to 97lbs-ft.
Thus, the value for a new hp/lbs ratio will be 144/(490+10) = 0.29hp for every pound of the motorcycle's weight. The old value was 109/490 = 0.22hp.
The value for a new Mo(torque)/lbs ratio will be 97/(490+10) = 0.195Mo. The old value was 89/490 = 0.18Mo.
You have to compare wet weight, since the whole disadvantage of a water cooled design is increased wet weight. Since they will likely hide the radiator up behind the panels (especially on a gsa), the weight is also much higher (8lbs/gallon).
Thus comparing a r1200gsa with 565 wet:
110/565 =.195HP/LB
Assume the upper bound of 15HP & lower bound of 20 pound increase in cooling system
125/585 = .213HP/LB
It's not that big an increase in power, but has 3 distinct disadvantages. Total weight is larger & the weight is higher up. Complexity of the system is increased. I haven't been wanting for more power on my r1200gsa, nor my r1200r, so power isn't a bonus.
Maybe they will also do other weight savings like the switch from 1150-1200. Maybe, they do such a good job as to make the weight the same as the current bike. You still have the increased complexity & no benefit to lean angle limitations of the boxer. The coolant is one of the larger failure components on the F800gs & other dual sports, so there are other headaches.
I think in the end, there are a lot of engineering challenges to add water cooling to the boxer, especially when it comes to weight and reliability. It remains to be seen how BMW addresses those issues. Right now, the 2012 boxers are the pinnacle of air cooled boxers. The first water cooled ones will be the start, with lots of issues to work out.
Weight increase should be less then quoted in the last reply, as I suspect that they will do away with the oil cooler, which will be replaced with the water cooled radiator.
So part of the plumbing will be again a swap out.
As I said, I just can't see them keeping the oil cooling as well.
Australia N,S,W
Mid North Coast
2005 R1200RT
I'm tempted to disagree. Water cooling has been around for 120 years and involves three very simple moving parts - a small electric or mechanical pump, a mechanical or chemical thermostat, and a fan.
I've had 3 air/oil cooled BMWs, and three water cooled ones - an F800ST, a first year S1000RR, and my current K1200S. None of them have had any problems with any of the cooling components. The RR though is a bit of a trip - you can run 170 degrees on the interstate all day long, but stop in traffic for more than a minute and the water temp rises to 220 and stays there, plus it makes the main frame spars too hot to touch. A mile of interstate riding and the water temp goes way down, but the spars hold the heat a long time.
I've also been lucky enough to own six air/oil cooled Porsches, and two water cooled. For every day driving, the water cooled is superior, because when you get stuck in traffic on a 90 degree day, the water temp does not rise at all, whereas on the air cooled Porsches the oil temp would rise into the "you now need a valve job" range. I've not heard of any significant problems with the flat six water cooling since Porsche made the switch in the 1999 MY. Water cooling has permitted Porsche to get 500+ HP out of the current boxer six in a street car - the GT3 RS.
[However, in all fairness, I have to say that air cooled Porsches sure sound way better than the water buffalos...]
Ub
05 K12S . 86 R65
Of course they do - they're a boxer twin times 3 !
The first liquid cooled Porsche 911s weigh 50 kg less than their air/oil cooled predecessors, even though they are signifcantly larger cars, so I'm sure that BMW can keep the weight of its water boxers equal to or less than the current 1200s. As noted above, an oil cooler will not be needed, and the oil capacity can be reduced.
Rinty
"When you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there."
Our K1200RSs had oil coolers and so do our K1300Ss.
Lee 2011 K1300S
MOA # 30878
Past BMW Bikes, 2003 K1200RS, 1991 K75S, 1987 K75T(bought new in 1988), 1984 R100RT
According to Kevin Cameron an air cooled engine will be heaver than a modern water cooled engine.
No car is as fun to drive as any motorcycle is to ride.
Some of us have long legs and short torso and some of us have a long torso and short legs. Can we trade?
The top heavy aspect of the 1150RT doesn't bother me at anything above 5 mph, anything below that and a quick turn to back in somewhere gives me hives so I normally ride on the sidewalk, go off the curb, hit the brakes and "welcome home"!
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